I got a reader going by the name of deeper truth commenting on this blog earlier. They really wanted to contend with me over my view that in Rev. 17 the whore of Babylon is in fact Rome and represented by todays vatican and her sway through the Roman Catholic church. The problem was this was off topic. The essay is my critique of the Lutheran church. I put a great deal of time in wrinting this artice reading from Luther's small catechism. But Deeper truth decided to try to engage in debate over the catholic church and skip the article. I also found a great deal of personal attacks involved and since many people will assume him to be Christian they will blame christianity for a lack of class. While I don't mind some competitve debate and I really want to work through issues and take criticism this blog is about finding truth and not name calling. I also found this rather disrespectful that DT would go on someone elses blog and assume the right to chastise the host. DT by no means is mindless and I found a couple ideas worth challengeing. However I ordered DT to place there comments on my essay "7 reasons why Roman Catholicism can not save a single soul." because I wanted people to read my article on lutheranism and stay on topic. As a result every response of DT isnce has been deleted. DT has yet to respond to the Catholicism article making it appear that DT is in fact afraid of it.
I will respond to a challenge from DT on the topography of Jerusalem and Rome.DT made the claim in his remarks that he was sorry(though he still used taunts?) and that he would no longer respond. Jesus taught that we should not cast our pearls before swine. I really prefer not to shut people off but, I found argueing with him frivolous because he would not fully engage in my arguments while blasting his own and trying to tempt me to lose my cool. But I think it's like jesus said turn the other cheek. If DT wants to be respectful and ask pertinent questions and respond to real challenges they are invited back on. if not they will be deleted.
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Greetinngs! Saw your post in Google Blogsearch and came to read.
>"my view that in Rev. 17 the whore of Babylon is in fact Rome and represented by todays vatican and her sway through the Roman Catholic church."
Most Catholics, Roman and non-Roman, would agree with you that Rev 17 describes Rome, ancient Rome at the time that Rev 17 was written. The idea that Rev 17 is the current Catholic Church at Rome seems an overstretch and against Rev 17.
How have you reconciled Rev 17:10?
"they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while."
If five of these kings had fallen in John's day and one of them was still in existence, then the whore must have existed in John's day. Roman Catholicism and Vatican City did not exist then.
God bless... +Timothy
Dear timothy, while I obviously need to write an article on this subject.
I will say this.
I was a caller on an EWTN radio show in may 2008. They had a guest who was a scholar on the Papacy.
I askhim about the Pope and the Vatican and the church on how they see things.
He admitted that Vatican city was officially the remains of the Old Roman Empire. Also Roman Catholicism claimed to be the Holy Roman Empire as well.
RCC is theocratic in sctructure. they did not have the American view of Separation of Chruch and state.
I do not believe the Beast will be the RCC however but that it is the whore and the Pope which will be the anti christ will turn on her. Sadly she will be wiped off the face of the earth.
I have typically viewed the five kings in terms of world empires. However I will have to say this is subject to change after I do some more research. by the way some vatican I Catholics have come to agree that a pope will be the anti-christ they only reject the historic conclusion saying the current church is becomine the whore.
Two more points-
1) I will respond to any point you make but not to a hundred points at once- like in that 10,000 word hate-filled polemic about how the RCC can't 'save anyone'.
2)What Martin Lucifer says is irrelevant. He is a heretic who is burning in hell. Use the Scriptures and the early church history to prove your points...unless you are too afraid.
deepertruth@comcast.net
I will debate you on ANY issue. Afterall, I have 2000+ years of orthodox, infallible truth behind me.
ANY issue.
I only set two conditions-
1) Debate honestly. That means you answer point for point instead of avoiding the points that make you uncomfortable.
2) stick to one issue at a time.
You send me one of your patented 500 accusation diatribes (mostly lies) and the debate is over.
3) Debate like a Christian and not like a hate-filled hypocrite.
um...meant three.
The Whore is Jerusalem and the Beast is the Pagan Roman Empire.
That is why there are two seperate allusions to the whore. The first is that she sits on seven mountains and committed fornication with the kings of the earth.
The second is of her riding the roman beast.
As we all know, the Roman beast turned on the Whore, and brought down the temple- just as Jesus foretold in the 23rd chapter of Matthew's Gospel.
The Anti-Christ is Nero, whose name in Hebrew has the numerical value of 666.
Jerome and Augustine were obviously much wiser than Martin Luther.
Of course, if one were to believe in the futureistic interpretations of the Apocalypse, which so many fundamentalists apply, the modern anti-christ could be found much better in the practice of Islam than Catholicism. Now THERE is a religion to be feared.
I wonder why Islam gets a pass from the good pastor.....
hmmmmm
WOW!
Timothy skewered you on your "7 reasons" article. Hey blew your arguments apart....even better than I did.
Way to go Tim!
The Woman in the Rev. 12 is clearly Israel the sun and the moon were symbolic of Jacob and Rachel as seen in the dream of Joseph.
[[[[The Woman gave birth to the savior. Are you saying that Israel gave birth to the Savior? The 12 stars represent her queenship over the 12 Apostles and the 12 Tribes.
Anyone can read the text and see that it refers to Mary. Also, in your cowardly way, you skipped right over the allusion to the Ark of the Covenant. You know, the vessal that carried the "Word of God" and to even TOUCH it meant death because of it's holiness. Clearly, the Bible is showing that the Virgin Mother is the Ark of the New Covenant]]]]]
The virgins 144,000 are of Specific tribes of Israel. (The twelve with 2 replacements)
[[[[[The two replacements signify the Old Israel being replaced by the New Israel. The new Israel is the Kingdom of God on earth- the Roman Catholic Church, which Jesus promised would be established within the lives of some of His witnesses.
Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Matthew 16:27-28 (in Context) Matthew 16 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:1
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
Mark 9:1-3 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 9:27
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."]]]]]]]
Most Catholic priest are gentile and there are millions of them.
[[[[The new Israel is the Church and the 144,000 is a symbolic number representing a great multitude]]]]]]
Roman catholicism can not promise heaven, only hell and temporary hell(pugatory).
[[[[[Any one who claims they can offer an absolute promise of heaven is attempting to speak for God. Only God can promise heaven and only to those who follow His will]]]]]
nice try...
Here we see AN EXAMPLE OF apostasy.
The word of God clearly states that there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved but the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 4:12
I pray to the Living God that you will be convicted of your idolatry.
[[[[[I pray the Holy Spirit convicts you of your false witness. I never once claimed there was any other name by which men may be saved. Your arguments get more pathetic by the minute.
So, let me ask you...
Noah's salvation from the flood...Was it not by God because Noah built the Ark?
Moses' salvation from the Egyptians...I guess that was nuliffied because Moses raised his staff?
And, of course, The Temple in Jerusalem was not God's because men labored on it for 46 years, am I right?
Your arguments are just plain silly. You have a grade school understanding at BEST.
Deeper truth has been abusing the fact That I am only able to check the internet occaisionally. However these arguements are consistently false and I will answer them as usual. However One only needs to look at the facts respect the word of God and seek His will in accordance to the scriptures. I will answer more of Deeper truth's blasphemy later,
In Christ,
Matt
LOL
Matt cries like a little girl when his idiocy gets belted out of the park. If ya can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, infidel.
Now, Matt is deleting the comments he cannot respond to...exactly as I told you he would.
why are you deleting comments, you sniveling coward?
This Spirit of the Anti-Christ denies that Christ has come in the flesh. Catholicism claims that Jesus was not born naturally but at the time of labor the physical baby passed through the womb of Mary spiritually.(Imaculate conception)
Huh????
From New Advent;
The virginity of our Blessed Lady was defined under anathema in the third canon of the Lateran Council held in the time of Pope Martin I, A.D. 649. The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, as recited in the Mass, expresses belief in Christ "incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary"; the Apostles' Creed professes that Jesus Christ "was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary"; the older form of the same creed uses the expression: "born of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary". These professions show:
That the body of Jesus Christ was not sent down from Heaven, nor taken from earth as was that of Adam, but that its matter was supplied by Mary;
that Mary co-operated in the formation of Christ's body as every other mother co-operates in the formation of the body of her child, since otherwise Christ could not be said to be born of Mary just as Eve cannot be said to be born of Adam;
that the germ in whose development and growth into the Infant Jesus, Mary co-operated, was fecundated not by any human action, but by the Divine power attributed to the Holy Ghost;
that the supernatural influence of the Holy Ghost extended to the birth of Jesus Christ, not merely preserving Mary's integrity, but also causing Christ's birth or external generation to reflect his eternal birth from the Father in this, that "the Light from Light" proceeded from his mother's womb as a light shed on the world; that the "power of the Most High" passed through the barriers of nature without injuring them; that "the body of the Word" formed by the Holy Ghost penetrated another body after the manner of spirits.
So, you see that Matt just bald face lied!
However, it WORSE THAN THAT!
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (ratified by Heaven) has NOTHING to do with how Jesus was born. In fact, it ins't about how Mary was born.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that, at the moment MARY was conceived, in HER mother's womb, she was flooded with sanctifying grace sufficient to preserve her from original sin. (Concupiscence).
This can be discerned by the Angel's greeting chaire kecharitomene (Hail, full of grace) "(Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary."
~New Advent
You are extremely confused. WOW!
Excuse me for using the wrong word.
The doctrine I was referring to was perpetual virginity.
"The dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son. " Catholic Encylopedia
"The perpetual virginity of our Blessed Lady was taught and proposed to our belief not merely by the councils and creeds, but also by the early Fathers. The words of the prophet Isaias (vii, 14) are understood in this sense by"
This can be discerned by the Angel's greeting chaire kecharitomene (Hail, full of grace) "(Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary."
So her you claim that mary possessed a god like state of soul. alongside being over shadowed by the holy Ghost at conception and not having christ breaking the hymen during birth is upholding christ as fully human?
First of all, since Alexa.com shows my blog ranked more than 7 million positions ahead of yours, it is pretty tough to seriously call us "rivals"
Now, please provide the citation you are quoting.
On second thought, since no one reads your heretical trash, I will not waste my time responding to your mentally challenged rants, redneck.
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