Monday, May 8, 2017

Pierced for our trangessions (debating a jew over messianic prophecies involving piercing)

I was on facebook,  I was debating other topics but this one came up when a Jewsih woman started debating me on the translation of "Lucifer".  This woman converted to Christianity for 40yrs before going apostate back to Judaism. I decided that this prophesy of Jesus being pierced in prophecy was worthy of publication.  here are excerpts on the topic.  (psalm 22 and zechariah 12 are key focused)
Jewish lady: Matt SIngleton You might start with a correct translation. If you did, you'd know that verse 16 does not say "pierced".
Correctly translated:
(Psa 22:16) (22:17) For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.
This Psalm is most definitely David.
As for your "complete" scripture.
Please do not attach your bible to mine and call it complete.
However, if you really want to go there, I was a born-again, spirit filled Christian for 40 years. I call those years as a "believer" my desert wanderings. I studied with some pretty important ministers of the time. You see, I was one of the original Jesus Freaks. Would you believe I even lived in a Missionary training school where I studied to street evangelize and I was good at it! Yep, I led hundreds of "lost" souls to Jesus.
But I'm Jewish and sooner or later, G-d awakens the Jewish soul, calls to them to return and opens their eyes to the truth.

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· Reply · May 6 at 1:35am
Matt SIngleton
Matt SIngleton They were not literal lions. What does "like a lion they are at my hands and feet mean? you think they were licking him? LOL.
No, Lions with big teeth and big claws, "pierce" and they did not remove the lion metaphor entirely from the passage."13 They gaped upon me with their mouths,as a ravening and a roaring lion." They made it more understandable to an english reader with the translation "pierced".

"This Psalm is most definitely David. "
Ad hoc
Ye that fear the Lord, praise him;
all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him;
and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel."
who is the "Seed" of Israel?
gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
Obviously, I am happy hat you told people about Jesus for 40 years.
But you have disproved the claim that you were a spirit-filled believer, you were merely partnering with the Holy Spirit. heb. 6:4-6
If you believed then you believe. because to believe is to know and you don't stop knowing the truth.
matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You think you will find solace in an incomplete Bible?
You have "scriptures" but they are waiting for the Word completed.
Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; "
This is a prophet like unto Moses. the other prophets were secondary to His revelation of the Law, there was new revelation that is not mosaic waitng.
Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days,
that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established
in the top of the mountains,
and shall be exalted above the hills;
and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge among the nations,
and shall rebuke many people:
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more."
Now here he teaches peace. but the OT hebrews were not pacifist! 
It is new teaching which you don't have. YOU DON'T HAVE A COMPLETE BIBLE."

jewish lady: Matt SIngleton does context mean anything to you at all?  
You Christians, you see a word translated into "Pierced" in English and right away, you think it has to mean "Jesus" because he was executed on a stake. Yet many people endured the same execution. In spite of this, you ignore all the legitimate Messianic prophecies that he never fulfilled and say "oh, but here's the word "pierced", he's messiah, he's messiah, it says pierced!" What about "Seed of David"? He's not of the biological seed of David though his father. What about building the Third Temple"? The Second Temple was still standing when he was killed! What about bringing peace? He said he didn't come to bring peace!

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· Reply · May 6 at 5:42pm
Matt SIngleton
Matt SIngleton so the son is not pierced?? lol lets see how you deal with zechariah 12:10. ( i am at work, so i cant send the link.)

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· Reply · May 6 at 7:57pm
Matt SIngleton
Matt SIngleton btw, ps22 also includes bulls of bashon. david referenced in tons of scripture. where is he put in an attacking zoo? the dogs were talking about the romans because they were named after romulus the wolf god and are gentile unclean dogs. people are still called gods. the lions are judeans "lion of judah" are attacking just like judah betrayed joseph. the bulls of bashon is dealing either syria northern Israel or a combo since northern israel was apostate. david is writing poetically. it no doubt applies to his personal situation in a emotional way. but it applies to christ in a way fulfilled too literally.

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· Reply · May 6 at 8:04pm
Matt SIngleton
Matt SIngleton no, jesus is biologically the seed of God the father. You didn't know jesus was the Son of God?  He is biologically jewish from his mom. His stepdad is biologically Jewish and both are bio descendants of David. He inherited royalty by adoption, to overcome the curse of Coniah. Yet through the curse of coniah his virgin birth and deity are validated. As he is a biological and inheriting son of David and yet the only begotten Son of God the father thus making him the one perfect mediator between man and God. And Jesus affirm he was not just a son of David

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· Reply · May 6 at 8:12pm · Edited

Jewish lady:Matt SIngleton Re: "so the son is not pierced??" - obviously this psalm is not about Jesus.
You should know that the original Hebrew in this Psalm does not say "Pierced", it says "lion" and if you read the whole psalm in context, it should be obvious this is not talking about Jesus.

Zechariah 12 is talking about a time when the Nations are gathered against Israel. In verse 9 HaShem declares He will seek to destroy the nations. He will pour out a spirit of supplication that will motivate the nations to look toward G-d.

verse 10

In verse 10 we see that they shall look upon "me" and mourn over "him"
Who is "me"
who is "him"?
This is obviously 2 different people

John 19:37
changed it to "him"

Can you explain why John changed this?
Zech 12:10 in Hebrew:
וְשָׁפַכְתִּי עַל בֵּית דָּוִיד וְעַל | יוֹשֵׁב יְרוּשָׁלַםִ רוּחַ חֵן וְתַחֲנוּנִים וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר דָּקָרוּ וְסָפְדוּ עָלָיו כְּמִסְפֵּד עַל הַיָּחִיד וְהָמֵר עָלָיו כְּהָמֵר עַל הַבְּכוֹר:
The correct translation:
"And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to Me because of those who have been thrust through and they shall mourn over him as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son."
Note, G-d calls Israel His firstborn son:
(Exo 4:22) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh: Thus saith the LORD: Israel is My son, My first-born.

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· Reply · May 6 at 9:05pm
Matt SIngleton
Matt SIngleton
22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. "
Yes. that's right they have no problem translating "pierced"
The 1985 JPS trans lation reads 17: Dogs surround me a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet."
in the study notes of the "Jewish Study Bible"(17-19) it says "The scorners are like dogs(and lions according to NJPS) hunting prey (cf. v.14) They gloat at his death and are eager to take his possessions"

SO you see the Jewish Hebrew Scholars have no problem understanding that the Lions and dogs and bulls are metaphorical and not literal. When the Lion mauls your hands and feet it is a lion but a person. After all people can cast lots for your clothes and not lions or dogs!! ( I know, I know! the painting of the dogs with cards can fool you!)
So if the lions are metaphorical what is it that they do that can relate the lion to the attacker?? Piercing!!! They pierce with weapons, lions pierce with teeth and claws.
Now lets pivot to Zechariah 12:10
The JPS is going to habitually run away from using the translation "pierced". But the Jewish Study Bible has some interesting notes on this verse.
"..The Hebrew s ambiguous, because it may refer to a person or a group whom they have pierced although the identity of the pierced one/ones is unclear, ...." "For an understanding of the verse as pointing to the Messiah from the house of Joseph, see b. Sukkah 52a."
Nottice that they have no problem using the word pierced.
But in general Jewish translators Are scared of using the word pierced in any way specifically, for instance
prov. 12: 18 There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword:but the tongue of the wise is health."
We see in the JPS "There is blunt talk like sword thrust but the speech of the wise is healing" not only is there no reason to not describe the stabbing of a sword as piercing, but the English is more poor than the Authorized version.
For more than a century Jews were content with the authorized version of scripture as the english Bible and used it for the english audience.
But as the nature of their doctrine they have a bias against Messianic prophecies pointing to Christ. So they use these translations in hopes of escaping that.
You see the consistent erasing of "pierced" is conspired because if the Messiah was pierced in Zechariah 12, then psalm 22 could also easily be applied tot he Son of David the Messiah After all curses and blessing spanning generations is a common theme in the Bible. So then psalm 22 being applied to the Messiah is easily literally applied to Jesus when they pierced His hands and feet and cast lots for His garments and the Jews are thus given fair warning of their betrayal and need for repentance.

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· Reply · Remove Preview · 17 hrs
Matt SIngleton
Matt SIngleton "This is obviously 2 different people" oh, you mean like the Father and the Son!?!?!?
Why would Jerusalem wail over Israel's Death, Jerusalem is part of Israel, Israel can not be dead with Jerusalem around!
But yes the OT speaks to the trinity.
And especially the father and the Son.
psalm 110:1
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
btw, king david is sovereign over Israel so who is his Adonai talking to Messiah? Adonai the Messiah, Jesus
Back to Zech, their is no plural once we hear "only Son" because by applying it to Israel you could only argue Jacob/Israel as the singular of Israel. which makes no sense in a future predictive prophecy.
on to john.
John is writing in Greek so he is giving us a copy of Hebrew writing but a translation of it. In general I have concluded that the majority of OT scriptures dealt with by the Apostles are not expositions. The reason for this is that are not speaking by it's authority but by the authority of Christ.
They are gathering implications as opposed to searching for the meaning in the texts.
What that means is that they are bringing out a point of agreement with The OT.
When I say "God is eternal" and you say that "God has been around forever and will stay forever more" you are not copying my words exactly but you have found the implied meaning of my words.
The apostles are inspired of God so they don't need other scriptures because they are already authoritative. They are showing the fulfillment of the scriptures as completing the revelation at various points.
let's look...
john 19: 34 but one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."
first, look at exodus..Ex. 12:43 And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 but every man’s servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. 46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. 47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it."
So John is using this verse to prove that Jesus was an acceptable sacrifice for sins, because his bones were not broken."
So John then refers to Zechariah 12:10 which applies because Jerusalem did indeed look upon him. And John is in fact right that Jerusalem looked upon Him the Messiah.
They had no clue he was prepared to be their sacrifice. Rome had no idea they were fulfilling Jehovah's Requirements. It is not like the Christians made them react that way!