Last year J.D. Martin, an sbc advocate of Lordship salvation publicly challenged me to a debate. J.D. Martin carries himself as a charitable character. However after 2 months of planning and study, and patience. J.D. canceled the debate and was rather rude. Here J.D. is having a quasi debate with a reformed Arminian as to whether Arminians like his friend, are Lordship Salvationists. here is my response:
So we start the video and there is an obvious hypocrisy from the start of this discussion debate.
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
In this sense, the law in the Jewish tradition has become antithetical to the truth of the Gospel. The gentiles who are not under an obligational covenant with the law, have the same chance at the same righteousness that is free from the obligation of the Law. offered to Jews.. Righteousness is external not internal.
Rmember sin is defined as the breaking of the law
Galatians 3:3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain."
Here we see the contradiction between scripture and lordship salvation. If we are saved by grace through faith then we are sanctified the same way.
1 john 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
The Gospel of salvation is simply defined.
1 Cor. 15:15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
This definition of the gospel IS Propositional it IS rational "good news". The Gospel is not our response, religion is our response. Both in conversion and sanctification.
J.D> brought up this passage..
1 cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
But since Jesus kingdom is not of this world we will enter with new bodies in glorification which have no sin.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
Sins can not inherit the kingdom because our flesh can not inherit the kingdom!
But we can find our inheritance and freedom in the liberty of salvation.
1 Cor. 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power."
How can all things be lawful to paul with all those exclusions from heaven? Simple , my reading was consistant. the whole time he had freedom in regards to moses but should have a wise mindset in regards to holiness and should volitarily seek holiness in drawing closer to Christ.
Now these men responded to cherry picked comments that I had placed. Unlike other programs they assumed all statements were to be official questions which defies grammar.
So I will give a more official statement.
The concept of Lordship salvation is Heresy if taken to it's logical conclusion. It is vague enough to be a slippery slope and so while I have met many people who are necessarily heretics, they may eventually slide into that position and understanding because it will not defend the scriptures true teaching on grace. by the end of this exchange J.D. Concedes that his Arminian friend who believes in apostasy does hold Lordship salvation. Thus all the criticism we have of apostasy should apply to lordship salvation. Arminians in most of the traditions do not fully understand; if not they deny imputed righteousness. modern wesleyans for instance teach that Jesus death removes sins but it does not impute righteousnes.
J.D. may have to eventually face this inconsistency.
As far as catholicism
In his book "The gospel According to Jesus" John Macarthur appeals to the Roman Catholic Church Father Augstine to support 'Lordship Salvation"
"Augstine writing in 412 AD, described works of righteousness as an inevitable proof of the operation of the Holy Spirit in one's life."
However, Augustine was not an evangelical! Augustine believed in purgatory and works based salvation. He did not argue for imputed righteousness or penal substitution.
"Augustine of Hippo, who, scarcely one year after his death, was called "one of the best teachers" of the Church by my distant predecessor, St. Celestine I,(1) has been present ever since in the life of the Church and in the mind and culture of the whole western world. In a similar fashion, other Roman Pontiffs have proposed the example of his way of life and the writings that embody his teachings as an object of contemplation and imitation, and very many Councils have often drawn copiously from his writings. "......
"I too have added my voice to those of my predecessors, when I expressed my strong desire "that his philosophical, theological and spiritual doctrine be studied and spread, so that he may continue...his teaching in the Church, a humble but at the same time enlightened teaching which speaks above all of Christ and love."(5) On another occasion, I urged in particular the spiritual sons of this great saint "to keep the fascination of St. Augustine alive and attractive even in modern society."...….
"Contemplating the Church as body of Christ, given life by the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of Christ, Augustine gave varied development to a concept which was also emphasized in a special way by the recent Council: that of the Church as communion.(138) He speaks in three different but converging ways: first, the communion of the sacraments, or the institutional reality founded by Christ on the foundation of the apostles.(139) He discusses this at length in the Donatist controversy, defending the unity, universality, apostolicity and sanctity of the Church,(140) and showing that she has as her center the See of Peter, "in which the primacy of the apostolic see has always been in force."(141) Second, he speaks of the communion of the saints, or the spiritual reality that unites all the righteous from Abel until the end of the ages.(142) Third, he speaks of the communion of the blessed, or the eschatological reality that gathers in all those who have attained salvation, that is, the Church "without spot and wrinkle" (Eph 5:27).(143)…...
Another theme dear to Augustine's ecclesiology was that of the Church as mother and teacher, a theme on which he wrote profound and moving pages, because it had a close connection to his experience as convert and to his teaching as theologian. While he was on the path back to faith, he met the Church, no longer opposed to Christ as he had been made to believe,(144) but rather as the manifestation of Christ, "most true mother of Christians"(145) and authority for the revealed truth.(146)".
Pope John Paul II https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1986/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_26081986_augustinum-hipponensem.html
Obviously the catholic popes actively use Augustine as a tool for proselytizing and the reformers are venerating him at the same time!
"Now all Faith is redemptive. James 2:14-16 says faith without works is dead and cannot save. James describes spurious faith as pure hypocrisy(v.16) mere cognitive assent(v.19), devoid of any verifying works (vv.17-18)- no different from the demons belief (19). Obviously there is more to saving faith than merely conceding to a set of facts. It will not save" The gospel According to Jesus" John Macarthur pg. 186
Now could this interpretation ever square with the teachings of Luther?
"That by the coming of Christ into the world by His Gospel, by which grace is offered, but not works required." Luther Bondage of the Will section 74, page 123
Of course Luther regarded the revelation of James as straw. All the more reason to realize that Macarthur's interpretation is traditionally heterodox to reformed exposition.
The epistle of James was the chronologically the 1st epistle of the New Testament written to jews.
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
The topic is laid out in ch. 1
James 1: 26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." So this is a letter written to Jewish Christians before the Apostle Paul came on the scene. This is important as Paul will have revelations which will revolutionize the course of the New Testament.
Ephesians 3: 2 if ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 how that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;"
Meanwhile, James qualifies his teaching of faith.
james 2:2 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Religion being the discipline of man in relation to others, and faith in respect of persons as opposed to Paul's theme of our faith in relation to God.
2: 6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 but if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."
The jewish Christians were giving preference to the rich, even though the rich oppressed them and God had given a spiritual place to the poor Christians. This is mentioned in light of Jewish law.
2: 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty"
Once again notice that these are laws respecting the relationships of people amongst each other.
2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? " Now in light of the context: "save him" is focused not on exchatology but on daily living as is the previous context focused.
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? "
So now it is obvious that we are relating our faith to each other and justification is a topic towards each other as opposed to Paul's topic of justification before God. Abraham was imputed righteousness before God previously but his faith has been revealed to man in his willingness to sacrifice his son.
John Piper and Rome
W.O. Cloud comments on John Piper's connections with Rick Warren.
"Consider John Piper. He is another bridge to the heresies in the “broader evangelical church.” In April 2011, Piper conducted a Desiring God conference at Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church, and in June he preached at the annual Southern Baptist pastors conference, again joining hands with Rick Warren. When you get into Rick Warren’s sphere, you are within reach of all sorts of heresies and fables. These are treacherous waters, indeed. Warren preaches the heretical “judge not” philosophy; turns the church into a rock & roll entertainment center complete with pelvic thrusts; says God won’t ask about your doctrinal views; continually and approvingly quotes from heretics in his writings and preaching (such as Roman Catholic universalists Mother Teresa, Henri Nouwen, and Thomas Merton); promotes Catholic contemplative mysticism; likens Christian fundamentalists to Islamic terrorists; calls for unity between Baptists, Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, Anglicans, etc.; promotes the exceedingly liberal Baptist World Alliance; yokes together with New Age practitioners; says that believers should work with unbelievers and pagan religionists to build the kingdom of God; and presents Roman Catholic one-worlder Tony Blair with a peace prize (March 2011). For documentation see http://www.wayoflife.org/database/warrenheader.html " https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/path_from_ib_to_shack_rome.html
"In the video, Piper says he is “ticked” with Christian seminary classes that turn “mainly” to the “mystical Catholic tradition in order to find this kind of depth and this kind of personal connection with the living God that is both rational and supra-rational and very mystical in its communion.” He adds, “You don’t have to embrace bad theology, namely Roman Catholic historic bad theology, in order to find amazing representatives of those who’ve known God at this level.”
The obvious question that was not answered in this snippet is whom does Piper believe are some of these “amazing representatives” who can teach us about “good” contemplative prayer? Thanks to our keen-eyed reader, who sent us a link to Piper’s church’s bookstore, we found that answer, at least in part--none other than Richard Foster, whose book Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home is being sold on the Bethlehem Baptist Church’s bookstore website. Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home is one of Foster’s primers on contemplative prayer. In that book, Foster tells us: “You must bind the mind with one thought” (p. 124). Foster’s advice echoes mystics such as Anthony DeMello as Ray Yungen points out in A Time of Departing (p. 75). Yungen warns that this binding the mind (getting rid of distractions and thoughts) is no different than classic Hindu meditation." https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/john%20_pipers_contradictory_position.html
"Apprising Ministries has been warning for years concerning the evil effects of the neo-liberal in the Emerging Church aka the Emergent Church.
It’s an incontrovertible fact that right from its hatching in hell corrupt Contemplative Spirituality/Mysticism (CSM), such as that taught by Living Spiritual Teacher and Quaker mystic Richard Foster along with his spiritual twin and Southern Baptist minister Dallas Willard, was a core doctrine.Spreading as a spiritual cancer throughout apostatizing evangelicalism, we even see that it’s slithered all the way into the New Calvinst neo-reformed camp e.g. as in Acts 29 Network And Reformed Counter Reformation Spirituality? One of the fruits of CSM is a blurring of doctrinal lines, which is particularly dangerous in this time of postmodernism and growing spiritual blindness.".....Moore’s admitted practice of some form of CCP, which is actually divination, has opened her up to even receive direct revelation and visions from God. Below from a 2002 series called Believing God, available right now at Lifeway’s website, Moore describes a vision God gave her concerning His Church.Sounding not too unlike Word Faith wingnuts she tells us God took her into some kind of dimension where she was able to see the Body of Christ as Jesus sees it:Apparently the Protestant Reformation was really some sort of horrible mistake because Moore’s Jesus sees the Roman Catholic Church as another Christian denomination. This becomes clear below as Moore demonstrates what she saw in her vision from God:Yet despite this obviously false vision ten years ago, there was Beth Moore preaching to thousands alongside New Calvinists John Piper and Francis Chan. I guess we really should expect this because Piper has told us before: “I’m Happy To Learn From Beth Moore.”"http://apprising.org/2012/01/06/beth-moore-and-john-piper-lead-lectio-divina-lite-at-passion-2012/
But Piper would definitely be different in his soteriology from Rome correct?"Yet I am hesitant to call Jesus' obediance in life and death a fulfillment of a 'covenant of works'. This term generally implies a that 'works' stand over against 'grace'. and are not the fulfillment of faith in grace. Thus works implies a relationship with God that is more like an employer recieving earned wages than in a son trusting his father's generosity." Future Grace pg.413
Here Piper is breaking away from Reformed Covenant theology. But this is not just leaving Calvinism. By doing this He is altering his view of justification in a way different from evangelicalism."When the Old Testament says that covenant keeping is the condition for recieving God's loving kindness, that's what it meant ... All the covenants of God are conditional covenants of grace-both the old and the new covenant. They offer all sufficient Future Grace for those who keep the covenant. But what it does say is that all future blessings of the Christian life are conditional on our keeping." Future Grace pg. 249
So then in defiance of evangelical Justification Piper says that we must fulfill conditions to receive grace."It is faith alone which justifies, but the faith which justifies is never alone." Future Grace pg. 21
Notice the lack of clarity in the motto. If faith in the sense of justification is never alone, it can not be alone.
The place of Christ in Piper's soteriology is incredibly diminished. It is the works of the Father and the spirit, which allows the sinner to be more righteous. While Christ only offers a conditional covenant by which if they are faithful then they may recieve future forgiveness. the act of salvation is then mixed with the act of man.
"It is sufficient for salvation, for it necessarily produces good works of love just as a good tree necessarily produces good fruit. Protestants and Catholics agree on this. The Pope even told German Lutheran Bishops so over a decade ago, and they were startled and delighted. the two churches issued a public joint statement on justification, a statement of agreement. Protestants and Catholics do not have essentially different religions, different ways of salvation." Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli Handbooks of Christian Apologetics pg. 32, 33.
Here we see Catholic Apologists have already capitalized on Protestants redefining the faith.
"By Grace I do not merely mean the pardon of God passing over your sins, but also the power and beauty of God to keep you from sinning. By faith I do not merely mean the confidence that Christ died for your sins, but the confidence that God will 'also with him freely give us all things' (Romans8:32). Faith is primarily future oriented assurance of things hoped for' (Hebrews 11:1)." pg.13
Future Grace
Here Piper wants to focus on the evangelistic concepts of grace and faith, he fuses the concepts of Justification and sanctification. This makes salvation a lifelong process just like Catholicism. This desire to redefine terms is a classic strategy of the cults.
Do not be fooled, this is not the traditional protestant concept.
"Because the Holy Spirit is received by faith, and hearts are renewed and put on new affections so that they can accomplish good works. For Ambrose says 'Faith is the mother of good will and righteous action'" Augsburg Confession XX. B.
Justifying faith is first, only then through the Holy Spirit's regeneration and sanctification are we able to produce good works. Faith being the mother is totally independent of her "good works" children.
Piper is also known for trying to get his church to alter their confession of faith to allow for infant baptism. What is interesting is the fact that his views seem to be apprehended in part with his partnership with Doug Wilson. Doug Wilson was formerly one of the leaders in the "Federal Vision Movement".
Wilson is open in his acceptance of Roman Catholics as his "brothers and sisters" as seen in his debate with James White. https://youtu.be/jlTMsNPjBLo
James White though holding an orthodox separation view is very reveal in a recent video where he stated that Roman Catholicism did not develop till the 12th century. By implication accepting the 1st 100years of Catholicism as orthodox. https://youtu.be/NSh5vunw2yk (about the 8 minute mark).
So the march towards Rome is definitely a strong motiff in the New Calvinism.
Albert Mohler and Catholicism
"Mohler has made strongly anti-Catholic statements, but at the same time maintains that much of Catholic doctrine is compatible with his views. In spite of his public criticism of the Catholic Church, Mohler claims in his official biography to have studied at St. Meinrad School of Theology [10] (a few hours drive from the Seminary of which he is President.)"https://www.monergism.com/r-albert-mohler-jr"Saint Meinrad Abbey's school was founded in 1857 by Swiss monks from the Benedictine Abbey of Einsiedeln. Following the decrees of the Councils of Trent and Baltimore, the school was organized into major and minor seminary programs. In 1959, Saint Meinrad was reorganized into a high school, college and theologate. The school offers the following advanced degrees: Master of Divinity; Master of Theological Studies; Master of Arts in Catholic Philosophical Studies, Master of Arts (Theology) and Master of Arts (Pastoral Theology).[1] The school is accredited by the Association of Theological Schools.
Saint Meinrad Seminary and School of Theology offers programs in Roman Catholic priesthood formation, theological formation for Roman Catholic permanent deacon candidates, lay degrees in theology, continuing adult education and youth leadership as part of its secondary education mission." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Meinrad_Seminary_and_School_of_Theology
So the Lordship salvation tradition is littered with roots to roman catholicism.
No comments:
Post a Comment