After debating on behalf of the position of Incarnational Sonship with a Baptist who was privately Arian; he Challenged my views in written form and later in a private phone discussion.
"Arius (/əˈraɪəs, ˈɛəri-/; Koinē Greek: Ἄρειος, Áreios; 250 or 256–336) was a Libyan presbyter and ascetic,[1] and priest in Baucalis in Alexandria, Egypt.[2] His teachings about the nature of the Godhead in Christianity, which emphasized God the Father's uniqueness and Christ's subordination under the Father,[3] and his opposition to what would become the dominant Christology, Homoousian Christology, made him a primary topic of the First Council of Nicaea, which was convened by Emperor Constantine the Great in 325."
The Arian Jesus is a separate creature from God only He is very godlike in most respects.
Incarnational sonship teaches that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. So that when He was born he had been begotten. However along with Orthodox Christians teaches the Word was God and the word became flesh in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.
The Arian responded to a debate I had over eternal generation. So here I will respond to his written form, which is in Italics.
I find it interesting he tries to pin Arianism on Alexandria, Egypt; when Origen's teaching on eternal generation was the beginning of the Trinity doctrine from the research I've done on the subject. It was Lucian of ANTIOCH who taught "semi-Arianism" according to most Church historians, including members of the original Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 that decided against Arianism. This also went along with the teaching of literal interpretation, contrary to Origen's teaching of allegorical interpretation.
His points are:
The Arian post-creation generation is not in the OT either.
2. He says, "WHAT OUR THEOLOGY IS, IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE RATIONAL". That itself is a silent admission the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union is bad theology since nobody can rationally explain it.
pro. 8:22-26 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world"
This may seem compelling in isolation, however....
pro. 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths."
This is not the male christ but a female.
Also this is not a person but an allegory. Proverbs written before Platonic discussion of abstract principles. It is telling a story to portray spiritual truth, namely to understand the nature of wisdom.
8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:"
Here we see that wisdom is a witness to creation, but not the creator. But Christ IS the creator!
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
So Christ created wisdom as opposed to being the entity wisdom.
Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
I guess he is stating that this means he was begotten in the beginning of time. Well let's look at the context.
"2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
This is a future passage and is eschatological in nature. The Father is giving the Son his inheritance which is the kingdom of the world. What is important is that He is telling the human Son. The debate between eternal generation and incarnational sonship is whether or not the human nature is the generated Son of God or whether the human nature Jesus Christ is the generated Son of God. When we are dealing with "Kiss the Son" we know that no one could handle the omnipotent logos. it is referring to kissing a man. The event is going to be real in the future.
My understanding of the trinity and incarnation is simple and therefore can be rationally understood.
God has one essence we call "Godhead" or "divinity". This one substance encases 3 minds. Father, word and spirit. Jesus is one being with 2 natures. one nature is that godhead and the other nature is the man jesus of nazareth. The 2nd person of the trinity, the logos/Word is the same person as Jesus of Nazareth.
A. Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God,
The everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace."
B. Micah 2:But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah,
though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
C. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
D. Exod. 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
E. Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
F. 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Actually there were plenty of early church guys that taught the deity of Christ and the major heresy at that period was modalism which accepts the deity of christ /sabellionism.
Btw, before genesis 1 is eternity past, it has no measurement of time. if it is not eternal generation it is irrational.
Even Origen had been uncertain as to whether or not the Spirit had been 'created or uncreated' or a 'son of God or not'" De Principiis preface A history of the Christian Church by Whiliston Walker pg. 115
"We therefore, as the more pious and truer course, admit that all things were made by the Logos and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and first in order of all that was made by the Father through Christ." Origen Allen Menzies, Anti-nicene Fatherspg.328(gathered from Final Authority by William P.Grady) Pg.91
"We say that the Savior and the Holy Spirit exceed all creatures without possible comparison, in a wholly transcendent way but that they are exceeded by the Father by as much or even more than they exceeded the other beings." Origen quoted by Henry Crouzel pg. 203 and later Roger E. Olson The Story of Christian theology pg. 110
I am not teaching Origen affirmed arianism, I am saying arius accredited his theology to Origen thanks to Origens doctrine of eternal generation
"This is ironic since Arius, the arch enemy of the doctrine of the trinity in the 4th century, claimed Origen as the source of his subordination of the Son in which he declared that "there was when the Son was not" pg. 109-110 The Story of Christian Theology Roger Olson 1999
Athanasius could not be a subordinationist for the simple fact that it would not work with his Soteriology.
"Only by real Godhood coming into Union with real manhood could in Christ could the transformation of human into divine be accomplished in him or be mediated by him to his disciples. As Athanasius said "He [Christ] was made man that we might be made divine."6 To His thinking the Great error of Arianism was that it gave no basis for a real salvation."pg110 A History of the Christian Church Williston Walker
"The first line of reasoning Athanasius used to support the equality of Son with Father is metaphysical. The heart of the argument is that if the Father is God, then the SOn must be God as well, for otherwise the Father would have changed in becoming Father. If there was a time when the Son was not, then there was a time when the Son was not a Father. For him the definition of the Son of God is part of the definition of God as father and "God's offspring is eternal, for his nature is even perfect...... What is to be said but that in maintaining 'Once the Son was not,' They rob God of His Word, like plunderers, and openly predicate of Him that He was once without radiance and the fountain was once barren and dry." pg 168 The Story of Christian theology Roger Olson
I'll have to see the reference. The filioque clause is ultimately rejected because of subordination because that would imply a distinction between persons and being."
I decided to do search on the question....
Does the Orthodox Church accept the Athanasian Creed? - Christianity Stack Exchange
"One of the main points of debate between the Eastern and Western churches concerns the words "and the Son" in the Nicene Creed's description of the Holy Spirit.
The so-called Athanasian Creed includes the words "and the Son" when describing the Holy Spirit.
How does the Orthodox Church view the Athanasian Creed?"
#1 Answer:
For the Orthodox, there is precisely one Creed: the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.
That being said, it depends on what you mean by 'accept'. The theology of Quicunque Vult / (Pseudo-)Athanasian Creed is definitely Latin in origin, but, generally speaking, it is theologically acceptable to the Orthodox once the filioque is removed. It is occasionally included in Russian psalters without the filioque. For example, see here for a ROCOR view.
However, Quicunque Vult is not considered normative in Orthodoxy. It is a useful historic document of the Church, but it was never endorsed (or to my knowledge, mentioned) by an Ecumenical Council. It is not creed."
Thus while the creed is not reject totally it is not accepted as an EOC creed which agrees with my original premise.Does mark12:6 teach early logos generation?
On the question of generation, the arians are nearly Identical to the catholic view of generation, Only the orthodox places it at eternity past while the arian places it right next to eternity past before creation and after time.
Mark 12:1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. 2And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard. And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty. And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled. 5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some. 6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. 7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'"
As we see from vs one this passage is written as a parable.
Parables are interpreted by most conservative hermeneutical scholars as conveying one meaning. Also they are not meant to be chronological histories. Here is an example...
"8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. 9What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others."
Hey!! What happened to the resurrection?? It is not in the parable because of the fact that this is simply illustrating a point and not laying out a chronology.
The point or the basic meaning of this parable is referring to the behavior of the Pharisees and their condemnation. Which is far away from the sonship debate. In fact it does not mention when the Son was generated anywhere is the text.
john 1:5 john 1:4-5, 12:34-36 The light
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
John 1: 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
John 1: 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."
SO we see God is light and light is by implication an infinite quality. Life which also has eternal qualities and is attached to the Christ. The light of men is synonymous with he image of God. This divinity being a composition of Christ.
1 john 5:7-9
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. "
Once again the Word is equivalent of God,(john 1:1) it is one of three while being one, and it is the same logos which became flesh (John 1:14). But the distinction of the Word from the Son shows that the divinity is distinct from the office of Son. Now this distinction is not to be in Arianism and Arians have consistently rejected it as part of scripture.
The Word
John 1:1-3, 14-18, Rev. 19
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Revelation 19:13-16
Rev. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
SO we see again the logos is deified, yet the Logos is incarnate. The Anointing is unique to that of Moses as it is direct divinity in the form of grace as opposed to Law. In describing Deity Christ is distributing divinity. In Revelation the distribution is fulfilled as He reigns upon the earth.
David worshipped?
1 chronicles 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.
The Worship here is not of David but of His Lord.
:14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee."
The context proves the hypothesis as David denies the right to be worshipped.
:21 And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the Lord, and offered burnt offerings unto the Lord, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel:22 And did eat and drink before the Lord on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the Lord to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest."
We see here the Sacrifices are not made for David but for the LORD.
Revelation and the divinity of Christ
Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
For the Arian position to be true, it is necessary that the alpha and Omega be God the Father and not Christ.
However, there are only two speakers in the context of Revelation ch. 1.
Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev. 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Vs 7 is alluding to Daniel 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." So it is speaking of Christ/Son of Man and thus it applies Reveation 1:8 to Christ as the alpha and omega.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Not only can we trace this through but "the tabernacle of God is with Men" describes the incarnation as the body of Christ is indeed the house of God. vs. 4 then is speaking of Christ being called God.
Thus the Incarnational SOnship which was attacked by an Arian Scholar has with Stood and Scripture has taught the truth of the Divinity of Christ.
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