Saturday, December 15, 2018

Augustine's ghost and the the spector in primitive baptists

Here I want to give an examination to the  system of belief called "primitive Baptists".
While many of their beliefs are biblical, there are some serious errors that give New Testament Christianity a bad name.  Primitive Baptist have a tendency to promote the infamous hypercalvinism.  So here, I will refute their doctrine.  I will be responding to an online catechism of their's. I think this is also practical for today as many Calvinist have become militant proselytizers.  We can see where the logic leads.

1. What is the basic difference between Primitive Baptists and other religious societies?

Answer: The basic difference is that Primitive Baptists believe in salvation by grace. There are really only two positions that a person can occupy on this matter. One is that salvation is by grace, and the other is that salvation is by works. It cannot be a combination of the two. A person may say that he believes in salvation by grace, but if he sets forth any act of man's will, such as repentance, faith, baptism, or hearing the gospel, as a condition for obtaining it, then this position must be put on the works side. Primitive Baptists believe that salvation is of the Lord, that it is by His grace, and that nothing needs to be added to it.

        So at the beginning we see a few logical fallacies to enforce the PB belief system.

1. false dichotomy) to claim only two options when others are available.

2. no true scotsman) putting conditions on identity that are not necessary to gain advantage.

   Nottice how they sneek in a doctrine salvation is not conditioned upon the hearing of the gospel or faith.  The entire protestant reformation held to justification by grace through faith alone. This is also a deviation from traditional Baptists, reformed and evangelicals. There are many dozens of churches/denominations that teach salvation is not of works and based upon the grace of God.

More importantly the type of grace that primitive Baptist are employing is the same that we would see from Karl Barth and so it is unique as much as they want to imply.

2. What do Primitive Baptists believe about the fall of man?

Answer: That Adam willfully transgressed the law of God and therefore plunged himself and his posterity into a state of guilt and corruption (Rom. 5:12-19). That now man in his natural state is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1) and is unable to recover himself by an act of his own "free-will" (John 1:13; John 6:44; Rom. 3:10-20; Rom. 9:16).

          Now the point of contention, is not the fact that man has a sinful nature, nor the fact that man is cursed with death, nor the fact that mankind can not redeem itself by an act of free-will. The contention is the idea that All men are only guilty by the act of Adam's sin alone and that mankind is not capable of making a positive response towards God at all.
Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."    This is an excerpt from Ezekiel 18, but the whole chapter focuses on this point, it is only cut short for the sake of brevity.  Ezekiel is extremely clear we are not guilty or innocent based upon the actions of our ancestors or vice versa.  The issue of sin is personal and not corporeal.  The idea of corporeal guilt is in essence racist.

Roman 7:  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."
   How then can Paul claim to have been alive? The Primitive Baptist Calvinist position would state that Paul was spiritually dead.  perhaps he could be permanently born again. Yet if that were the case then How did Paul die? Remember Paul is saying this after the romans 5 proof text.

 Deuteronomy 1:Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."
  The children had a state of innocence because they had no knowledge between good and evil.  Adam and Eve had their fall specifical =ly because they had eaten the fruit of the knowledge of God and evil. So the effects of the Fall had not yet taken effect upon the youth.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
  It seems apparent that the primitives are spiritualizing death. Then the sin imputed when there is no law is guilt being imputed.
   However, if we take the text literally we see that the discussion is an imputation of death and not the imputation of guilt.  "for until the law sin was in the world" The sin of adam was breaking God's law in the dispensation of Eden where he was not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because of His sin then we all must die.  So the comparison is Adam sinned and all must physically die.  Jesus died and all will be resurrected.
That's right, all will be resurrected!

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

  This is why hell will be everlasting torment because the damned go through physical resurrection.
Revelation 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

  So when it says "dead in trespasses and sins" we are guilty and spiritually dead in our own trespasses, we are guilty of our sins!  "ye walked"  dead men don't walk! but guilty men condemned to death do.

"fulfilling the desires of the flesh" This is not to deny the sins of the flesh and the flesh nature. 

Galatians 5:For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

 Our flesh is dead and dying and it drives us to sin. So sin is a bi-product of our flesh.   So our sinful nature travels through our flesh as opposed to our spirit.
Our spirit dies in accordance with our personal sin.
psalm 51:Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
and in sin did my mother conceive me."
 What is shapen in the womb?  Our flesh is shapen in the womb! The sin is in the flesh.

3. How do Primitive Baptists support their view of unconditional election?

Answer: They believe that Ephesians chapter one plainly teaches that before the foundation of the world, God, according to His own sovereign pleasure, elected a people to eternal salvation and made all of the arrangements necessary for them to live with Him in glory.

Ephesians 1: 11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.  13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
    Predestination is set for after faith!  That is exactly what this text is teaching! their own proof text of all places.


Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold;
mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."
                             luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
  So Jesus claims to be the elect servant.  In the Augustinian view election and chosen are referring to salvation as in God is choosing whom he will save.  But How can God choose to save Christ? Would that not mean that Jesus was a sinner who was unable to save???

The Jewish view of chosen and election is not that it is a choice of whom to save, but whom to serve.  By being elect you are being a servant!
Exodus 14:7and he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.
Deuteronomy 7:6For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

Here the term for God choosing Israel is equivalent with God choosing.

1 Peter 1: elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Election is in accordance. which means "in harmony" with the foreknowledge of God.  So God chooses us for a task.  He accomplishes this goal through the work of the holy Spirit in sanctification. Sanctification is only accomplished after justification by grace through faith. "and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus" which accomplishes justification.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

   How could God create Hell for the devil and demons when he would be supposedly predestining damned humans as well?  Would not determinism demand that Hell be equally prepared for them? The damnation of the wicked must be conditional based upon their sin as opposed to the alleged cruel intentions of God.

4. What is their position on predestination?

Answer: They believe that God has predestinated a great number to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:28-30). While some object to this doctrine because they say it is unfair, Primitive Baptists rejoice in it, for they see that had it not been for predestination, the whole human family would have been lost forever. Predestination is not the thing that condemns a man, or puts him in a ruined condition, but the very thing that gets him out of such a state. Predestination concerns not "what" but "whom." It is the great purpose of God to lift a people up from sin and corruption and make them like Jesus Christ. That's glorious!

Romans 8:  28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
"them that love God" are the subjects of predestination.  Thus,  predestination is apply to people only after they believe.

It is safe to argue that this(infraapsarian/election) is not the universal doctrine of primitive Baptist one famous elder Daniel Parker was known for the two-seed-in-the-spirit doctrine which claims man is either a slave to God or the devil. Thus supralapsarian..
  Also as shown earlier this predestination is in accordance with God's foreknowledge.

Romans 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"

5. Did not Jesus die for the whole human race?

Answer: No, the Scriptures will not support that idea. Jesus said He came into the world to do the will of His Father, and that will was that He should save all who were given Him (the elect) even before the world began (John 6:37-39). Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins, and He did it (Matt. 1:21; Rom. 8:33,34). He died for His sheep, not for goats (John 10:15). He died for sons, for the sanctified, for the brethren, for the church, and for the children (Heb. 2:9-15). He saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied (Isa. 53:10-12) .

Romans 5:7 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. "1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
  The scriptures often parallel the fall of adam and the redemption of Christ.  If they are parallel these two acts then Christ atonement should be equally universal as the fall of Adam.

2 peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
    We see here that God's will is specifically not for those to perish. But a detractor might ask who would the any be?
2 peter 3: but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."   The subject is ungodly men.

Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
         The invitation is specifically not for the elites but is a universal offer. The dinner was ready parallels easily to the atonement, thus the sacrifice was universal.  But it was received conditionally.

2 Peter 2: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
 Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."
       The 2 peter passage shows that false teachers who were obviously damned, had been bought by the Lord. Bought obviously refers to atonement. There are only two options.  Either these were  false teachers which lost their salvation or these men were never truly saved but atonement was universal. Either way the Calvinist has to give up and simply assault the passage as a "problem text".

6. Do Primitive Baptists deny that Christ died for the world?

Answer: No, they believe that the world for which He died was the world of His elect. The world of souls for which He died do not have their trespasses imputed to them and therefore cannot be condemned (ll Cor. 5:18-19).

John 3:15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
The Baptist hymn stated "whosoever meaneth me!" whosoever is the fruit of "God so loved the world"  Now while the sending of Son is not one of condemnation, there is a condemnation, "he that believeth not is condemned already"  
    The "world" is what Christ "come into" and came into a world where men loved darkness rather than light, when it was He who was light?  The World was then the place God loved and it needed the salvation of Christ which was offered and it is the same place that was condemned when they rejected the offer.

1 Timothy 2:For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
   Men is used universally here as they were talking about pagan rulers.  And one God/one mediator is obviously applying universal authority to Christ, thus the ransom Christ paid was universal.

1 john 2: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

4: Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. "
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."

5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."
   The same world which Christ dies to save is the wicked world which desperately needs salvation.

2 Corinthians 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
   So here in their proof text we see the word "might" which is conditional.  Thus the primitive Baptist have to accept a condition on obtaining righteousness which is by faith.

7. How do you know that all of the elect will respond to the call of the Spirit?

Answer: All of the called are justified, so all who were called were called effectually (Rom. 8:30). Jesus said all that the Father giveth me SHALL come (John 6:37).

Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 and when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."
  In this parable God is the Lord and he called the husbandmen, but they repeatedly rejected the call.

Referring to the romans 8 verse.  There are two calls in the greek "proskaleo" and "kleses" from where we get ekklesia/church.  Proskaleo is a call to mankind, clesis is a calling like unto an employment, The called are employed and therefore is referring to confirmed believers.

8. Do you not then teach that some might want salvation but could not have it because they are not one of the elect?

Answer: No, the man who wants salvation already HAS it. The man who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5:2-6). The alien sinner doesn't want salvation, he doesn't fear God, and he doesn't love God; therefore we conclude that the man who wants salvation, fears God and loves God is a subject of grace (Rom. 3:11,18; I John 4:10).

Matthew 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."
   Sodom could have been open to repentance.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."
    The rich young ruler desired eternal life and was sorrowful not to receive it.

luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
The rich man wanted mercy and he wanted his family to be saved.
The desire for salvation does not merit salvation, nor is it proof that salvation occurred.

9. Why then do you preach, if you are already sure that all of the elect are going to be saved in Heaven?

Answer: For the comfort and instruction of the Lord's people (Isa. 40:1-2,9; Eph. 4:11-16).
  While comfort and instruction of God's people is a good and true motivation.  Preaching is obviously tied to the great commission.
Matthew 4:And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. 19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. 20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him." 
  Jesus who is the head of the church wants the disciples to draw mankind just like a fisherman.

Romans 10:For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
The link is clear in the text Salvation is through the gospel and therefore linked to the preaching of that Gospel.

10. Don't you believe that the preaching of the gospel is God's ordained means of bringing eternal salvation to the sinner?

Answer: No, only by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit can eternal life be brought to the dead sinner (John 3:6-8). The gospel brings life and immortality to light but doesn't produce life (ll Tim. 1:10).

Hebrews 11:  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    The temple(body) of the unbeliever is defiled by sinful flesh.  The Holy Ghost is separate from that.  Their must be blood propitiation to cleanse the temple for the Spirit to move and give it new life.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.  How more explicit does it need to be? Notice "faith to faith" obviously implying person to person as opposed to the Holy Spirit operating mystically.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God"

Once again preaching the cross= power of God.
1 Thessalonians 1:For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6" note 'Power of the Holy Ghost'

2 timothy 1: For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles."
   Bringing life and immortality to light is what the gospel does as it is a conduit of salvation, the cross it the essence of salvation and the gospel is the conduit of that.

Romans 5:1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. "

The faith/belief goes into grace as opposed to the grace going into faith. The grace does not make faith but faith accesses grace.

11. How then do you explain I Corinthians 1:21 and passages like it?

Answer: The text says, "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." Please notice, that the one saved by the gospel is a believer, one who believes in God, one who has already been born again; he is not an alien sinner.

1Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

  Here they avoid the implications of their view in the sense that their elected are always beginning in unbelief which is the state they claim to still be saved in.

Romans 3: 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;""
   Our justification is specific and rational.  It is not an emotion desire for eternal life; instead it is a rational assent including faith in the blood of Christ to cleanse us from sin.

12. Why is it that Primitive Baptists do not send out missionaries?

Answer: First, they believe that since preaching is not designed to make people ready for a home in Heaven, it is not necessary to send men across the seas in order to "save souls." The Lord put gifts in the church, and these are listed in Ephesians 4:11; there is no mention of a missionary. Furthermore, the gifts that the Lord did put in the church were not put there for the purpose of saving souls but "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:12).
Secondly, they believe that gospel ministers should go where they are directed by the Spirit and not by a mission board (Acts 20:22-23). Primitive Baptists believe that if the Lord impresses one of His servants to go to a foreign land to preach the gospel, he ought to go at once and not wait for someone to pay his way.

Luke 10 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: and heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city."
Jesus sent out missionaries in the first mission to Israel.

Mark 16: 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be
Gospel preaching is limitless "every creature".

Matthew 28: 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
"teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" Since they are commanded to preach the gospel then all the disciples should do the same.

Acts  15:25 it seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;"

   The churches were able to co-operate together.

Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away."

  Here is a New Testament Church doing it's job and commissioning missionaries.

2 Cor. 16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.  "
  As oppose to the PB claim collections were taken up for the saints which would fall in the responsibilities of the missionary.
  Missionary societies are an innovation but as long as they are subordinate to the church and are simply helping the churches objectives then faithful to the great commission.

13. Why is it that Primitive Baptists do not have Sunday Schools?

Answer: This ties in very closely with the previous question. The Lord put gifts in the church, and so the church has no more right to appoint someone to teach than they do to call a man to preach. We believe that "pastors and teachers" are one office. Children ought to be brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord (Eph. 6: 4), but this is the responsibility of the parents in the home. The church cannot possibly do for a child in one hour a week what his parents should have been doing all week long. The Sunday School is another of man's inventions which is generally used as a "soul-saving" agency But it must be emphasized that Jesus the Saviour is the only soul winner and that man never has been able to do that work (Heb. 8:11). Furthermore, we are taught that women are to keep silence in the churches (1 Cor. 14: 34), and this is ignored in most Sunday Schools and Bible Schools. The church should be taught by the pastor, who is to be a God-called man and who must be apt to teach even before being recognized by the church as an elder (1 Tim. 3:2).

Matthew 18: 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

The heart of this contention is a slam on the autonomy of the local church.  Churches have the anointing and blessing of Christ in fulfilling their commission. While we can be concerned about abusing liberties, using liberty to follow the Lord is not prohibited.

  Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part."  

2 timothy 1:  11 whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. "

  Paul is mentioning being a teacher and apostle and preacher, does that mean that a preacher is an apostle?  Know one can teach aside from pastoring.

titus 2:The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,"
    Here the aged women are teaching. Thus could be teaching at church so long as they are not pastoring.
          This another example of how PB uses the 'mote in the eye' strategy. Yes sunday school can be abused as a replacement for devotions, but pastoring can be abused though it is explicit. Sunday school as a method of devotion and evangelism is of use in the house of God.

14. Why are your ministers called Elder?

Answer: The term "Elder" is a scriptural one (1 Tim. 5:17), but the title "Reverend" used by many today is a name belonging only to God (Psa. 111:9).

1 timothy 3:1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Elder is not an exclusive title in the New Testament. Reverend is not the ideal Christian title, although those who use it are only intending a term for pastor adopted from English culture. I have alsways preferred the title "Brother"

15. Are Primitive Baptists Protestants?

Answer: No, the true church of Jesus Christ was established before the religious institutions of men bearing the name "Christian" came into being and has been somewhere in the world since that time. The true church was in existence long before the Protestant Reformation, so it cannot really be called a Protestant Church."

   Primitive churches may not be protestant and may have come out from New Testament churches.   But quite frankly they are not new testament churches because their anti-missions emphases is not in the scriptures.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

16. Why is it that Primitive Baptists do not build hospitals, orphanages, and other charitable institutions?

Answer: It is not that they are unconcerned about caring for those who have need, because they feel to have a duty in that regard. But the church is a spiritual body and not a charitable institution. The church is a home for God's people where the gospel of Christ is proclaimed, His ordinances are observed and discipline is maintained. It is the duty of every member of the church to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction (James 1:27), and prayer should be offered for the sick (James 5:14-16); but it is the chief aim of the church to render a spiritual service that is pleasing to God ( John 4:24).

   For the most part this conviction is fine but if it is made as a way of condemning those of a different view, then primitive baptits should not build church buildings either.

17. Do you believe in tithing?

Answer: No, this was a requirement put on the Israelites under the old law service but is not binding today. If we bring over part of the old Jewish service into the church, we might as well bring it all. God's people in this dispensation ought to give, but the principle set forth is that "God loveth a cheerful giver" (II Cor. 9:7).

I find this quite ironic.  One of my worst experiences involing the church and money was my one visit to a primitive Baptist church in Louisville KY.   It was downtown near german-town not far from the street ormsby.  An African American Primitive congregation. My mother was invited there by a friend. They had several speakers.  They took offering after the service.  Then they took another offering.  At which point the pastors scolded the audience for holding out. They then had a 3rd offering. I gave all I had the 1st round! 

18. Do Primitive Baptist ministers receive a salary?

Answer: No, they devote their time and substance to the service of God out of love, and as the Lord blesses their labors among His people, those among whom the minister has labored contribute willingly to his needs (I Cor. 9:9-14).

see above

1timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

19. Is it true that Primitive Baptists wash feet?

Answer: Yes, Jesus said we ought to wash each other's feet, and Primitive Baptists do so. "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well ; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 3:13-14).

     Nothing wrong with that.

20. Do Primitive Baptists actually believe they are the only ones going to Heaven?

Answer: Absolutely not; in fact they allow for a larger number being in Heaven than most religious societies. Ideas like this have been started by the enemies of the church and not by her friends. Jesus is the firstborn among MANY brethren. There will be a people in Heaven out of every nation on earth (Rev. 5:9-12). No one will be there because of what he believed, but many will be there in spite of it. One's doctrinal views or church affiliation has nothing to do with his destiny.

  On one level we can agree that a church preference does not determine if one is going to heaven.  Yet this leaves conservative theology in their particular wording and implies inclusive salvation. But there is only one way to heaven.
John 14: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. "
Galatians 1:I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

21. Can you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved?

Answer: In response to this question we would ask another; does any man have access to the Lamb's Book of Life? Of course there is but one answer. No man knows the names which are recorded there, so we must say with Paul, "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1: 2). We are confident that the God Who cannot lie is going to save those He loved before the world began, and we have the sweet hope of being in the number. When Jesus said one of His disciples would deny Him and was a devil from the beginning, they all asked, "Lord, is it I?" We must acknowledge that if some can be deceived, thinking they are a child of God but are not, we could be in that number. A humble expression of hope in the mercy of God is far more befitting the little child of grace than a presumptuous boast that he knows he is secure."

   This is sad and pathetic.  At the end of the day they are still in line and have no knowledge of true salvation.
Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
    After all the boasting of their high view of grace,  they are still not sure if it was applied to them. No better than any system of works based salvation.
1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:"
      John is unambiguous we can know the Lord Jesus Christ!
Referring to Old Testament saints...…..
Hebrews 11:And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

22. Why do you not preach that God loves everybody?

Answer: Because the Scriptures do not teach it. God loves His people but does not love every man in Adam's family (Rom. 9:11-13).

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Romans 9: 11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
   Again election is referring to how God chooses to use someone.  Paul quotes Malachi.

Malachi The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

     Here we see the proper context where God is dealing out the privileges of the nations and how that effected the edomites who came from Esau.  "hate"  used here is an idiom or slang for loved less.

23. Since you believe that your destiny is in the hands of God and that you can do nothing about it, does this not cause you a great deal of anxiety?

Answer: No, there is far greater peace and comfort in knowing that our case is in the Lord's hands than in thinking it is in our own (Titus 3:5-7).

There is no fear of the wrath of God in this logic.
Matthew10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

24. For what purpose were the Scriptures written?

Answer: The Scriptures are written that the child of God "may be thoroughly furnished unto all good works." The Scriptures do not bring eternal salvation but are able to make us "wise unto it" (ll Tim. 3:15-17).

25. Is not the word the means by which we are born again?

Answer: It is true that we are born again by the Word of God which liveth and abideth for ever, but that Word is not the written word, or the preached word, but the living Word-Christ (John 1:1,2,14; I Peter 1:23-25) ."And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." The Word and the gospel are two distinct things. Christ and the message of Christ are not synonymous. The gospel is the good news of what Christ has done for His people.

26. Do Primitive Baptists believe in preaching the gospel to sinners?

Answer: Yes, because the only people in the world interested in the gospel of grace are poor, needy sinners. A man must be made sensible of his sin by the Spirit, must be born again to receive the gospel message (Luke 5:31,32; I Cor. 2:14). The gospel is not addressed to the dead alien sinner but to the burdened sinner (Matt. 11:28-30).

   What happened t being dead in trespasses and sins?  This is the height of spiritual bigotry.
27. Do you call upon men to repent and believe?

Answer: Yes, the burdened sinner ought to repent and believe the truth. The one who thus repents, believes, and is baptized is going to be saved from the distress he feels and from much error and confusion (Mark 16:16). The salvation involved here is not that which takes a man to Heaven, but that which saves his life here in the world (Acts 2:40).

28. What is meant by the expression, "the gospel or militant church"?

Answer: There are two phases of the church. The universal church or the church of the first born is made up of all the children of God. This is the church which Christ purchased and which He shall finally present without spot or wrinkle and therefore must involve more than one assembly or body of people (Eph. 5:25-27; Heb. 12:23). Then the visible, gospel or militant church was set up by Christ as a home for His people during the days of their pilgrimage. To enter the gospel church one must be taught by the gospel and follow the Lord in obedience through the waters of baptism. The gospel church is but a little flock in each place where it is found (Matt. 18:17; Luke 12:32; Rom. 16:16; II Cor. 1:1) but the church which shall be housed in heaven includes multitudes (Heb. 11:12,13; Rev. 5:9 and 7:9).

Where did the concern about using unbiblical methods and phrases go?

29. Do Primitive Baptists preach infants in Hell?

Answer: No, the doctrine preached by Primitive Baptists is the only message which leaves any hope for infants, the feeble-minded, and the heathen, most religious groups preach that one must hear and understand the gospel, actively obey the gospel, and manifestly believe on Christ, in order to become a child of God. But the great message of grace which is so firmly believed and preached by Old Baptists, declares that one may be a recipient of the mercy of God without hearing the report of it through the gospel and even without fully understanding what has taken place in his heart. If infants, the feeble minded, and the heathen must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them. But since salvation is by the sovereign grace of God through the work of His Son, we know that He will save His own regardless of their circumstances in life (Rom. 8:34-39; Rom. 11:28; II Tim. 2:13,16-19).

30. Where did the Primitive Baptists get their name?

Answer: The true church has been known by several different names since Christ set it up during His earthly ministry. In centuries past those who made up the gospel church have been known as Christians, Donatists, Waldenses, Albigenses, Ana-Baptists, and others. Around the year 1832, there was a division in the Baptist family in this country. Those who insisted on establishing mission boards, Sunday Schools, and other unscriptural societies in the church became known as the New School or Missionary Baptists. Those who continued to walk in the old paths were known as Old School or Primitive Baptists. The word primitive simply means: "Of early times; of long ago; first of the kind; very simple; original." The Primitive Baptist Church is certainly of early times, from the time of Christ. It is the first of the kind, tracing its identity to the church which Christ established. It is very simple, adorned only with that beauty which Christ gave His church. It is original, the very church of Christ.

And so we conclude this critique.  I would see the primitive Baptist as hetero-dox.  Someone might be able to understand the gospel and be saved in their ranks.  But the confusion by denouncing the great commission can definitely make Gospel proclamation a struggle.   I think the relevance is more than simply the members of this sect however.   I believer that Calvinism though orthodox contains a spector inherited from the Roman Catholic Augustine and this spirituality pops up randomly in their midst. Some Calvinist are careful of the dangers of hyper Calvinism But hyper Calvinist never identify themselves as such, so this is a needed example. today many Calvinism practice denouncing all non-Calvinists missions and overemphasize abuses to make Christians fearful of reaching the lost and I believe this is the spector that I fight in this piece.  Being a non-Calvinist may shut my protest to some but it also helps in the since that I am not afraid to call out these abuses either.   Whether you come down on my side or disagreeing with me, I urge the reader to realize that we must reach the sinner and answer to God for it.

Ezekiel 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

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