Questions for Geocentrists:
I was first introduced to the Geocentric idea in the 1990s after receiving several unsolicited copies of the book "A Geocentricity Primer" by Gerandus D. Bouw. I did read the book and was unconvinced.
Recently, others have asked me about this, and my position has not
changed. However, I am open to be convinced if those who promote
geocentrism will Scripturally answer the following questions consistent
with their approach to geocentricity.
(I came up with these questions simply by looking at every occurrence of "sun," "moon," "stars," "earth," and "world" in the Bible. These are reasonable questions that need to be addressed if one is expected to believe geocentrism is taught by the Scriptures.)
----------------------------------------------
"Sun
The Bible mentions several times of the sun going "down," being "set," "rising," and coming "up." Are these terms to be treated as absolute?"
NOT JUST THOSE WORDS BUT EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE IS ABSOLUTE!!!!
Now assuming this guy is logical, he would need to have a definition for the word absolute.
When we say absolute the Bible is absolutely true. But it is not absolutely literal. The Bible as a whole is Literally true but it is not presenting absolutely literal communication because people can not communicate with such language, Because people need metaphors to learn new words.
The Bible teaches us and therefore it can not only use literal language and not figurative language.
But the Bible is always true. So when Joshua points to the moon in an order to stop , the noun "Moon" must be the right noun and the verb must be truly acted out. There can be relativity but this is determined by the text.
joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."
So it is obvious in this passage, it is obvious that the subjects Sun and moon are refereed to and not the earth. Gibeon represents the subect of the earth. he sun is stop moving and be still upon Gibeon which is sitting upon the earth. Joshua should have said and "the sun seemed to stand still "And "I saw the moon seem to stop moving." that would allow relativity.
If so, where does the sun go when it sets? What does it set to or on? Where does it rise from?
Is the sun setting or rising in all locations of the earth at the same time?
psalm 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven,
and his circuit unto the ends of it:
and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."
The circuit is a circle so the sun goes in a circle. The sun sets to the chamber. The chamberis the side of heaven which is unseen to the observer. The sun comes out of the chamber and rises from the east.
And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.
the two tribes and the half tribe have received their inheritance on this side Jordan near Jericho eastward, toward the sunrising.
Now these are the kings of the land, which the children of Israel smote, and possessed their land on the other side Jordan toward the rising of the sun, from the river Arnon unto mount Hermon, and all the plain on the east: and turned from Sarid eastward toward the sunrising unto the border of Chisloth-tabor, and then goeth out to Daberath, and goeth up to Japhia,
Do multiple observers in different locations of the earth view the sun setting (or rising) at the same moment?
One of the proves of geocentricity and as a matter of fact, Joshua's long day. Accounts of the long day all across Africa and Eurasia/ But not in the Americas. However the Americas do have legends of a long night.
Do any two observers see the sun in exactly the same position in the sky at the same moment?
Sure! That is why we have time zones! 😏
Time zones connected to the Sun are biblical. As we see when God performed a similar miracle.
behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.
Does an observer in Jerusalem see the sun set at the same moment as one in Egypt, Rome, or Spain?
If not, then the "sun rising" and "sun setting" must be RELATIVE to the observer.
Time zones is a question for heliocentricity just as much as geo centricity.
Do you believe the earth is a globe or sphere surrounded by a rotating firmament containing the sun, moon, and heavens?
yes.
If so, then considering the whole earth do you believe the sun must be constantly and perpetually rising and setting at some area on the earth at all times as the sun passes around it?
yes.
If so, then you must agree that "sun rising" and "sun setting" are not absolute terms but are RELATIVE to the position of an observer.
This reminds me of the Superman movies with Christopher Reeves. In this one superman decides he will change time itself by flying around the earth backwards!
Unfortunately Super man is fiction, and time is real. God has power over time but no one else.
How does the observable fact that at the north pole there is only ONE sunrise and ONE sunset per YEAR fit into your contentions?
It is not about the sunrise as much as the sun light. But God did not inspire the Bible in the north pole.
The contention here drips into liberalism. If the Bible is a subjective book then it is not an objective book. Making the leaps from relativity to the ability to count days and seasons is a claim that the bible is not historical because we apparently cannot trust the calendar.
The Bible says the sun waxes "hot" during the day and by implication cools or wanes in the evening (Exo 16:21, 1Sam 11:9, Neh 7:3).
Do you believe in the absolute sense the sun itself increases and decreases in temperature on a daily basis?
Exodus 16: 18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating. 19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning. 20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them. 21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted."
"it melted" btw, is the manna, not the sun. The OT uses a lot of "functional language". The sun in the biblical language is not just the orb about 93 million miles away. The sunlight or rays are still connected to the sun. So when the sun "waxed" or grew hot the heat from the sun grew hot and they could feel it.
If so, how can the sun be waxed hot in one location when it is noon and be cool in another location where it is sunset or sunrise at the same moment?
Actually this questions sound better as a geo-centrist because the sun moving would tend to lead one to think that explains why the temprature is changing. but actually both questions are equivalent.
If not, then the the term "waxed hot" is a RELATIVE term conditioned on the position of an observer on the earth in relation to the sun.
Yes and no. this is scripture, it is true so it waxed hot. It is relatve in the sense that human experience is relative. But sceince is included as relative so now 50% of your argument is gone because you can not disprove geocentricity. But the bible is operating under geo-centricty which tips the scales.
The Bible speaks of the sun rising "up," "above", "over" and "upon" the earth and men live "under the sun" (Gen 32:31, Ecc 1:3, etc.), however, both the geocentric and heliocentric models have the sun (and planets) beside the earth on a relatively even plane. How then is the sun said to be above the earth except as RELATIVE to the observer?
This not the fault of the sun it is the roundness of the earth. However, helio centricity has no reation to the idea of the sun moving and geocentricity does. plus as a heliocentric there is no up or down you have no clue where the sun or the earth is in relation to the universe. It is a lie for you to claim that the sun is not below the earth. This is because of the copernican principle..
The Bible describes the sun as travelling a "circuit" from the "end" "unto the ends" of heaven (Psa 19:6). Does the sun travel to the furthest extent of heaven? To the very ends of it during its daily circuit?I answer this earlier when I brought up psalm 19.
Since one reason the sun and moon were created was to determine "days, and years" (Gen 1:14), during Joshua's "long day" the sun and moon stood still and "hasted not to go down about a whole day." How could this "day" be measured without the movement of the sun and moon?
Did time itself cease? Is this day a 24 hour period as in Gen 1 or just the daylight hours?This is a 24hr period.It is measured perfectly in a "solar day". as opposed to a sidereal day.
The days of Genesis were all literal 24 hour days. The light of days 1-3 were from a universal plasma racing through the ether. God formed the plasma into celestial objects like the stars on day 4.
Moon
Do you believe that the moon generates its own light (Isa 13:10)?
If not, how do you reconcile the sun's light and path being called "his" and the moon's light being called "her light"?
Yes, figuratively the woman is effeminate. So where did a woman come from? Women came from the man Adam. So the light of the moon is a lesser light and just as eve came from adam the light of the moon came from the sun.
What does it mean in Gen 1:16 where it says God made the moon a "light"?
Just as the sun's light is connected to the sun, the moon's light is connected to the moon. The moon glows and it gives light of course this is the lesser light.
Is the moon always a "light" (monthly dark moon, eclipse, etc.) If not, why?
it is not a called light, it is called lesser light.
Does the Bible state anywhere that the moon's light is a source other than itself ("her light" 4 times)?
Does the Bible state anywhere that the moon's light is actually reflected sun light?
the figure of her and lesser harmonize with the concept.
job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not;
yea, the stars are not pure in his sight."
job 31:
26 if I beheld the sun when it shined,
or the moon walking in brightness;
How do you explain a "new moon" (1Sam 20:5, Col 2:16, etc.)
"In astronomy, the new moon is the first phase of the Moon, when its orbit is not seen from the Earth; it is at this moment when the Moon and the Sun have the same ecliptical longitude.[1] The Moon is not visible[note 1] at this time except when it is seen in silhouette during a solar eclipse when it is illuminated by earthshine. See the article on phases of the Moon for further details."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_moon
The sun and the moon are both said to "shine," (Rev 21:23) is there a difference in their light?
yes, the moon's light is lesser.
Joel 2:31 (also Act 2:20) states "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood," and Rev 6:12 says the "sun became black...and the moon became as blood." How can the sun be dark yet the moon still be seen even if blood (red)?
We'll know when it happens!!
😋
This is a future event.
Stars
Nah 3:16 says, "Thou (Nineveh) hast multiplied thy merchants above the stars of heaven," Do you believe this to be literally and absolutely true?
Were the merchants greater in number than the stars of heaven or were they placed physically above the stars?
I believe that is hyberbole, likely a cynical joke.
Likewise see Heb 11:12 where the seed of Abraham is said to have already "sprang...so many as the stars of the sky in multitude." Has there been as many born of Abraham (or even born of Adam) as there are stars in the heavens?
Is it possible this language is intended to reflect how many stars could be seen with the "naked eye" at the time it was written or spoken?You cut the verse.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."
innumerable is a very important word here. whether we are talking all people who ever had some jewish or arabic ancestry, or all existing Christians or the stars in the sky they are all innumerable.
Also the estimates of star counts are really indetermineable, because of issues claiming galaxies and issues or reflection in space.
--------------------------------------
There are several more questions of this type that need addressed also, but this is enough for now.it won't be enough until you believe in geocentricity.
(I came up with these questions simply by looking at every occurrence of "sun," "moon," "stars," "earth," and "world" in the Bible. These are reasonable questions that need to be addressed if one is expected to believe geocentrism is taught by the Scriptures.)
----------------------------------------------
"Sun
The Bible mentions several times of the sun going "down," being "set," "rising," and coming "up." Are these terms to be treated as absolute?"
NOT JUST THOSE WORDS BUT EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE IS ABSOLUTE!!!!
Now assuming this guy is logical, he would need to have a definition for the word absolute.
When we say absolute the Bible is absolutely true. But it is not absolutely literal. The Bible as a whole is Literally true but it is not presenting absolutely literal communication because people can not communicate with such language, Because people need metaphors to learn new words.
The Bible teaches us and therefore it can not only use literal language and not figurative language.
But the Bible is always true. So when Joshua points to the moon in an order to stop , the noun "Moon" must be the right noun and the verb must be truly acted out. There can be relativity but this is determined by the text.
joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."
So it is obvious in this passage, it is obvious that the subjects Sun and moon are refereed to and not the earth. Gibeon represents the subect of the earth. he sun is stop moving and be still upon Gibeon which is sitting upon the earth. Joshua should have said and "the sun seemed to stand still "And "I saw the moon seem to stop moving." that would allow relativity.
If so, where does the sun go when it sets? What does it set to or on? Where does it rise from?
Is the sun setting or rising in all locations of the earth at the same time?
psalm 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven,
and his circuit unto the ends of it:
and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."
The circuit is a circle so the sun goes in a circle. The sun sets to the chamber. The chamberis the side of heaven which is unseen to the observer. The sun comes out of the chamber and rises from the east.
And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.
the two tribes and the half tribe have received their inheritance on this side Jordan near Jericho eastward, toward the sunrising.
Now these are the kings of the land, which the children of Israel smote, and possessed their land on the other side Jordan toward the rising of the sun, from the river Arnon unto mount Hermon, and all the plain on the east: and turned from Sarid eastward toward the sunrising unto the border of Chisloth-tabor, and then goeth out to Daberath, and goeth up to Japhia,
Do multiple observers in different locations of the earth view the sun setting (or rising) at the same moment?
One of the proves of geocentricity and as a matter of fact, Joshua's long day. Accounts of the long day all across Africa and Eurasia/ But not in the Americas. However the Americas do have legends of a long night.
Do any two observers see the sun in exactly the same position in the sky at the same moment?
Sure! That is why we have time zones! 😏
Time zones connected to the Sun are biblical. As we see when God performed a similar miracle.
behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.
Does an observer in Jerusalem see the sun set at the same moment as one in Egypt, Rome, or Spain?
If not, then the "sun rising" and "sun setting" must be RELATIVE to the observer.
Time zones is a question for heliocentricity just as much as geo centricity.
Do you believe the earth is a globe or sphere surrounded by a rotating firmament containing the sun, moon, and heavens?
yes.
If so, then considering the whole earth do you believe the sun must be constantly and perpetually rising and setting at some area on the earth at all times as the sun passes around it?
yes.
If so, then you must agree that "sun rising" and "sun setting" are not absolute terms but are RELATIVE to the position of an observer.
This reminds me of the Superman movies with Christopher Reeves. In this one superman decides he will change time itself by flying around the earth backwards!
Unfortunately Super man is fiction, and time is real. God has power over time but no one else.
How does the observable fact that at the north pole there is only ONE sunrise and ONE sunset per YEAR fit into your contentions?
It is not about the sunrise as much as the sun light. But God did not inspire the Bible in the north pole.
The contention here drips into liberalism. If the Bible is a subjective book then it is not an objective book. Making the leaps from relativity to the ability to count days and seasons is a claim that the bible is not historical because we apparently cannot trust the calendar.
The Bible says the sun waxes "hot" during the day and by implication cools or wanes in the evening (Exo 16:21, 1Sam 11:9, Neh 7:3).
Do you believe in the absolute sense the sun itself increases and decreases in temperature on a daily basis?
Exodus 16: 18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating. 19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning. 20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them. 21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted."
"it melted" btw, is the manna, not the sun. The OT uses a lot of "functional language". The sun in the biblical language is not just the orb about 93 million miles away. The sunlight or rays are still connected to the sun. So when the sun "waxed" or grew hot the heat from the sun grew hot and they could feel it.
If so, how can the sun be waxed hot in one location when it is noon and be cool in another location where it is sunset or sunrise at the same moment?
Actually this questions sound better as a geo-centrist because the sun moving would tend to lead one to think that explains why the temprature is changing. but actually both questions are equivalent.
If not, then the the term "waxed hot" is a RELATIVE term conditioned on the position of an observer on the earth in relation to the sun.
Yes and no. this is scripture, it is true so it waxed hot. It is relatve in the sense that human experience is relative. But sceince is included as relative so now 50% of your argument is gone because you can not disprove geocentricity. But the bible is operating under geo-centricty which tips the scales.
The Bible speaks of the sun rising "up," "above", "over" and "upon" the earth and men live "under the sun" (Gen 32:31, Ecc 1:3, etc.), however, both the geocentric and heliocentric models have the sun (and planets) beside the earth on a relatively even plane. How then is the sun said to be above the earth except as RELATIVE to the observer?
This not the fault of the sun it is the roundness of the earth. However, helio centricity has no reation to the idea of the sun moving and geocentricity does. plus as a heliocentric there is no up or down you have no clue where the sun or the earth is in relation to the universe. It is a lie for you to claim that the sun is not below the earth. This is because of the copernican principle..
The Bible describes the sun as travelling a "circuit" from the "end" "unto the ends" of heaven (Psa 19:6). Does the sun travel to the furthest extent of heaven? To the very ends of it during its daily circuit?I answer this earlier when I brought up psalm 19.
Since one reason the sun and moon were created was to determine "days, and years" (Gen 1:14), during Joshua's "long day" the sun and moon stood still and "hasted not to go down about a whole day." How could this "day" be measured without the movement of the sun and moon?
Did time itself cease? Is this day a 24 hour period as in Gen 1 or just the daylight hours?This is a 24hr period.It is measured perfectly in a "solar day". as opposed to a sidereal day.
The days of Genesis were all literal 24 hour days. The light of days 1-3 were from a universal plasma racing through the ether. God formed the plasma into celestial objects like the stars on day 4.
Moon
Do you believe that the moon generates its own light (Isa 13:10)?
If not, how do you reconcile the sun's light and path being called "his" and the moon's light being called "her light"?
Yes, figuratively the woman is effeminate. So where did a woman come from? Women came from the man Adam. So the light of the moon is a lesser light and just as eve came from adam the light of the moon came from the sun.
What does it mean in Gen 1:16 where it says God made the moon a "light"?
Just as the sun's light is connected to the sun, the moon's light is connected to the moon. The moon glows and it gives light of course this is the lesser light.
Is the moon always a "light" (monthly dark moon, eclipse, etc.) If not, why?
it is not a called light, it is called lesser light.
Does the Bible state anywhere that the moon's light is a source other than itself ("her light" 4 times)?
Does the Bible state anywhere that the moon's light is actually reflected sun light?
the figure of her and lesser harmonize with the concept.
job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not;
yea, the stars are not pure in his sight."
job 31:
26 if I beheld the sun when it shined,
or the moon walking in brightness;
How do you explain a "new moon" (1Sam 20:5, Col 2:16, etc.)
"In astronomy, the new moon is the first phase of the Moon, when its orbit is not seen from the Earth; it is at this moment when the Moon and the Sun have the same ecliptical longitude.[1] The Moon is not visible[note 1] at this time except when it is seen in silhouette during a solar eclipse when it is illuminated by earthshine. See the article on phases of the Moon for further details."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_moon
The sun and the moon are both said to "shine," (Rev 21:23) is there a difference in their light?
yes, the moon's light is lesser.
Joel 2:31 (also Act 2:20) states "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood," and Rev 6:12 says the "sun became black...and the moon became as blood." How can the sun be dark yet the moon still be seen even if blood (red)?
We'll know when it happens!!
😋
This is a future event.
Stars
Nah 3:16 says, "Thou (Nineveh) hast multiplied thy merchants above the stars of heaven," Do you believe this to be literally and absolutely true?
Were the merchants greater in number than the stars of heaven or were they placed physically above the stars?
I believe that is hyberbole, likely a cynical joke.
Likewise see Heb 11:12 where the seed of Abraham is said to have already "sprang...so many as the stars of the sky in multitude." Has there been as many born of Abraham (or even born of Adam) as there are stars in the heavens?
Is it possible this language is intended to reflect how many stars could be seen with the "naked eye" at the time it was written or spoken?You cut the verse.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."
innumerable is a very important word here. whether we are talking all people who ever had some jewish or arabic ancestry, or all existing Christians or the stars in the sky they are all innumerable.
Also the estimates of star counts are really indetermineable, because of issues claiming galaxies and issues or reflection in space.
--------------------------------------
There are several more questions of this type that need addressed also, but this is enough for now.it won't be enough until you believe in geocentricity.
1 comment:
Smack him, Matt!
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