Sunday, April 20, 2014

Witness to a hypercalvinist


Here is a facebook debate I had with a calvinist who I believe is a hypercalvinst.  I have removed names, so as not to villainize anyone.  But I want  to show the argumentation and where the theology leads.   We start off with a debate over Van tillian presuppositionalism.  I will label him HC



  • HC: Matt, God says so.
    January 20 at 7:15pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton HC, how do you know that God says so?
    January 20 at 7:15pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton You'll see where I am going if you watch the youtube video
    January 20 at 7:16pm · Like
  • HC:Matt, God says so. 😇
  • Matt SIngleton But HC, How do you know that God says so?
    January 20 at 7:18pm · Like

  • HC Matt, to cut to the chase, my answer will always be the same.
    January 20 at 7:19pm · Like

  • HC I know because of revelation on a spiritual level.
    January 20 at 7:19pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton Would you know the revelation without reasoning?
    January 20 at 7:20pm · Like
  • HC: Matt, I reason from this revelation. Revelation precedes reason.
  • Matt SIngleton btw, you are coming onto something with the term "spiritual"
    January 20 at 7:21pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton Ahh, but how did you understand it to begin with? after all your depravity might destroy your ability to interpret the gospel.
    January 20 at 7:21pm · Like
  • HC:Matt, praise God He regenerated me, freeing me from sin.
  • MATT SINGLETON
     So then you would agree that we can completely understand the scriptures.

  • HC: Matt, aside from the two natures, yes.
    January 20 at 7:24pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton Well, if I keep probing you on that sinful part, you know we will hit an infinite regress.
    January 20 at 7:27pm · Like
  • HC:
     Matt, how so?
  • Matt SIngleton Because there will always be error in your sinfulness and there is always the chance of you totally misinterpeting the scripture. Much like the atheist not having the ability to be certain.
    January 20 at 7:28pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton let me propose a solution
    January 20 at 7:28pm · Like

  • Another user: You can't argue revelation to a non-believer.
    January 20 at 7:29pm · Like

  • HC:  Matt, where did you that idea?
    January 20 at 7:30pm · Like
  •  matt singleton: admin, why not? Paul did.
  • Matt SIngleton We start off with the evidence of our experience of the gospel(regeneration) this is the starting point. It is not the basis however. From experience we can conclude that regeneration is an effect from the cause which is the gospel/scripture. once we conclude that the scriptures are true then we can operate under a presuppositionalists stance.
    January 20 at 7:31pm · Like

  • HC: Matt, I said nothing of my experience, for regeneration was done to me having nothing to do wit my experience.
    January 20 at 7:34pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton that's the problem HC you should be!! LOL
    January 20 at 7:34pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton You have to experience regeneration at some level. Because you would experience hearing the gospel and believing the gospel.
    January 20 at 7:36pm · Like

  • HC: Matt, no. Your gospel is in error. I was regenerated independent of my actions.
    January 20 at 7:38pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. do you deny this?
    January 20 at 7:41pm · Like

  • A 2ND USER: Matt you are discussing things that are arbitrary to each believer, ergo how one 'feels' regenerated.... best to stick with solid presupps of uniformity based on the transcendental argument and the impossibility of the contrary
    January 20 at 7:43pm · Like
  • HC:
    Matt, your point?
  • HC
     Man is saved by grace, not by faith.
  • Matt SIngleton HC regeneration is not salvation. Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.
    January 20 at 7:50pm · Like

  • HC: Matt, Titus 3:5 says to the contrary. Be that as it may, our salvation is not based on our experience.
    January 20 at 7:51pm · Like
  • Matt SIngleton And the point is wasted since you have no justification for interpretting scripture. which is why your argument stands nullified against atheist. You can't say my view doesn't makes sense so it matters that your view doesn't make sense. Besides God is not the author of confusion.
    January 20 at 7:51pm · Like
  • HC: Matt, the point is not wasted, but wrong because it is based in that which is Biblically false. You defeated a straw man. Big deal.
  • Matt SIngleton Titus 3:5
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"     I never claimed believing or confessing is a work of righteousness. paul didn't either. you do not understand the difference between an act and a work. You can be hired by mcdonalds and proclaim your belief in mcdonalds. but they will still fire you because you did not work. anact of believeing is not a work. and I hope you believe in christ imputed righteousness.
    January 20 at 7:54pm · Like
  • HC: Matt, you can deny reality all you want, but salvation is by grace, not what I do. To preach otherwise makes you anathema. Gal 1:6-9.
  • 2nd user :And exactly the reason the God is not the author of confusion, we have his Character, his mind, and thought processes of logic and reasoning which is the authority for uniformity.
       In the Christian Theistic worldview, it is logical for there to be uniformity, for it is the character of God...
    However, in an atheistic/natural/material/atomism worldview, how can one 'rationally' account for uniformity?

    THATS the argument.
    January 20 at 7:58pm · Edited · Like
  • Matt SIngleton HC why do you quote scripture? How do I know that you can understand it? (besides the evidence of bad exegesis )
    January 20 at 7:58pm · Like
  • HC:It is the truth, God's Word, and I do not claim you can understand it. To the contrary, I am beginning to doubt you can.
  • Matt SIngleton Do you believe that the holy spirit is the same person as Jesus?
    January 20 at 8:01pm · Like


  • HC: Nope, God the Son and God the Spirit are two different persons making up, with the Father, one God.
    January 20 at 8:02pm · Like
  • HC:   2nd user, this is important for Matt is hearing the real gospel for the first time.
  • Administrator: Hey guys, we're getting far afield of the OP here. If you want to continue this conversation, do so on Doctrine Discussion, not here. I'll delete anything else following this path. This is the wrong forum for it.
  • HC: Administrator, you got it, but can you invite me to that group, please!
  • Matt SIngleton Timothy you can message me your gospel privately
    January 20 at 8:06pm · Like
    ______________________________________________________________________________

      At  this point we went to a private conversation and things got interesting..

    HC: Thanks for invite, but you have it already. Salvation is by grace, not works.
    But I think you believe in works based salvation.

    Matt Singleton: You think incorrectly.
    do you believe regeneration is a work of the Holy Ghost or Christ?
    HC: Both.
    Matt Singleton: Are they the same person?
    HC:I answered that in the group.
    are there 2 regenerations?
    HC:Nope.
    Matt Singleton: and you assert regeneration is salvation correct?
    HC: Yep.
    Matt Singleton: So you disagree with sola christa?
    HC: If by that you mean no other person in the trinity is involved in salvation, then yes, for that is heresy.
    Matt Singleton: ok, So Christ alone is heresy....
    HC: As I said.....
    Matt Singleton: well that does match with romanism. the holy spirit helps the sinner to merit salvation.
    HC: I never said the sinner merited salvation. If you cannot help but argue against a straw man, we need to end this conversation.
    Matt Singleton: ok, so faith is not a work then correct? You obviously agree with the reformed understanding of imputed righteousness
    So how are you building the case for me teaching works based righteousness?
    HC:  Faith is a work, a work of God. We are saved by grave, not by faith. Faith is the result of salvation, not it cause. In other words, I believe because I am saved. I am not saved because I believe.
    HC:Grace*
    Matt Singleton: define grace
    HC:God's unmerited favor.
    Matt Singleton: elaborate, what is the favor?
    HC: Approval, good will.
    Matt Singleton:We are saved by God' good will, not by the work of God.
    HC: Is English not your first language or are you still wrestling with straw men?
    Matt Singleton: What does the cross of christ have if any to do with our salvation?
    HC:Christ paid for the son of the elect.
    Matt Singleton: that last sentence confuses me. please elaborate
    HC: What do you not understand?
    Matt Singleton: who is the son of the elect which christ paid for?
    HC: Sorry, that should have been sins of the elect.
    Matt Singleton: ok, good
    So were the elect saved prior to christ paying for their sins?
    HC: Some of them, such as all of the OT saints.
    then why was christ death needed?
    HC:To stone for the sins of the elect (2x).
    HC: Atone*
    Matt Singleton: Am I correct to understand that the OT saints were saved without christ first though?
    HC: Christ is the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the earth.
    Matt Singleton: So Christ was not slain at a specific day and time?
    HC: Dude, you really do not understand spiritual truths do you?
    Matt Singleton "foundation of the earth" sounds like before creation
    God is not the author of confusion
    HC:So you poorly reason that if something confuses you, it is not of God?
    HC: The first sin: arrogance.
    Matt Singleton: So back to your allegation. If faith doesn't save. then how am I a legalist?
    HC:Because you insist salvation is by works.
    Matt Singleton: which works?
    HC:Faith. And who knows what else.
    Matt Singleton: So you believe that faith is a work?
    HC:God's Word says it is. LOL
    Matt Singleton: where does it say that?
    HC: One sec.
    Matt Singleton: faith is a rational proposition. not emotional outpouring.
    HC:John 6:29.
    HC:You really need to stop impose your false philosophies on God's Word.
    HC:Inposing*
    HC:Imposing*
    Matt Singleton: Jesus was talking to the jews when he said this. do you agree?
    also would you agree that most of them left and were not followers
    HC: What does John 6:29 tell you?
    Matt singleton: The works of God which they were desiring were the miracles that christ was performing. But the works of God was not about miracles for miracles sake. the work of God was the Gospel. the object of faith. This was all the build up of the gospel. Jesus goes on to tell them. john 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    HC:Please tell us what John 6:29 tells you?
    HC:Ne*
    HC:Me*
    Matt Singleton: us? are you more than one person?
    ok
    answer: God is preparing them for the gospel
    HC:That is not what it says, is it?
    HC:It says that belief is the work of God right?
    Matt Singleton: what belief?
    HC: Not relevant to your answer to my q. Please answer.
    Matt Singleton: baal? Allah? what belief?
    HC:As I said... 
    Matt Singleton: Please answer.
    you don't think it is relevent what belief is ?
    HC:Answer, please?
    Matt Singleton: why can't you anser the question? what belief??
    what belief???
    I answered you...... what belief????
    HC: Well, not that I have established that you are intellectually dishonest outside of the Word and, now, within the Word, I shall not waste more time on you. Have a good one.
    HC:Now*
    Matt Singleton:  I wonder how long you are going to keep perverting people's minds. When are you going to fear the Lord at all. You think you can toy with God. You don't believe, otherwise you wouldn't toy with His word. you can call me names all you want.But that is called railing and it is a sin. when I give you an explanation you foam like an infant. Because you don't have an answer. Remember that God chastises those he loves. and if something happens it is God want you to stop taking his name in vain. You will learn what love is all about when you accept christ work on the cross to save your soul. I'll tell you what I will pray for you, and don't worry I won't tell people that you are not saved. but you know deep down. I made the point of conversion experience regeneration as proof of God and you called it a false gospel. and that implies one thing. that you have not experienced regeration. again and again I probed you and you espoused heresy after heresy. Now sure I can be wrong. But if I am right you will know deep down. you may even want to lash out a little more. But the obstacle is your own pride. It is not a big miracle like the catholics teach. It is knowing that he loves you. and he does! limited atonement is a stupid stupid unbiblical idea. you had to read it...51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." You are in the world!! He is made salvation for you too!! I know many calvinist who left christianity and had many freinds deny the faith after a couple years of calvinism like ### ####, ##### #######, ##### ########,##### ######, #### #####, ## ######, ### ###### and #### ######. I have an idea what might be going on in there. hoping that you can muster evidence for your regeneration. wondering if you are truly elect. All the while doubting God's Word thanks to an endless stream of allegorizations any time God's word is brought to you. faith is that of a child. it is not deep but simple. romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Did you hear that? you will not have to ashamed any longer! look at your preveious post romans 3: 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:" if there is one emotion you conveyed it was bitterness. If I were lost as you think I would not have found anything but a bitter evangelist of bitterness. What are you trying to prove? you know I really don't care how you react to me. You want to think you beat me in an argument? Go ahead!! ### ##### knows his doctrine! Nobody can stop him or tell him what to


It wasn't natural for me to question this person's salvation.  But I felt a conviction to do so.  How could one not experience being born-again on at least some level.  If you are sure that you have eternal life, shouldn't it change your perspective on life and evoke some emotion from originally believing in either no afterlife or the possibility of facing Hell? Unless one is brain damage that should evoke a response.  You could argue about not having an external response.  But it would at minimum evoke internal emotions, it is as tramatic as jumping off a cliffe.  So how could it be a false gospel?  George whitfield was ased by his followers if people believed in their heart. He responded according to romans 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

For this man to call experiencing salvation as heresy reveals a lot to me.   We must remember that we do believe in our hearts.
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