Greek Origins
While the Greeks did not specifically refer to their concepts as "evolution", they did have a philosophical notion of descent with modification. Several different Greek philosophers subscribed to a concept of origination, arguing that all things originated from water or air. Another common concept was the idea that all things descended from one central, guiding principle. Aristotle suggests a transition between the living and the nonliving, and theorizes that in all things there is a constant desire to move from the lower to the higher, finally becoming the divine. (See Evolution from The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.)
www.thinkquest.org
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
The real worldview of theistic evolution
Theistic evolution is in truth a pantheistic worldview. Because God acts through nature. So what is nature? Nature is creation itself.
If God is only acting with creation according to the laws of science, it appears that God is submissive to nature. Also it appears that God never acts outside of nature. So it is not too hard to conjure up the idea of God as a pantheon. in fact the only other possibility is that God is a minor deity inside a pantheon.
Because God is not acting as a personal deity.
So if God is pantheistic, then God is the same as that conjured up by the eastern religions. which of course is simply pagan.
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Pierre Teilhard De. Chardin and the New Age
"Chardin is one of the most frequently quoted writers by leading New Age occultists" Gary Kah, En Route to Global Occupation (Lafayette, LA: Huntington House Publishers, 1992), p. 41.
The New Age is another term for paganism.
Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
"...a general convergence of religions upon a universal Christ who satisfies them all: that seems to me the only possible conversion of the world, and the only form in which a religion of the future can be conceived"
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Christianity and Evolution (Collins, 1971): 130.
Luke 6:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
"I believe that the Messiah whom we await, whom we all without any doubt await, is the universal Christ; that is to say, the Christ of evolution." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, as quoted in “ Teilhard de Chardin: Christianity and Evolution,” Spiritual Conspiracies Project Journal: 56.
This is the New age Christ it sees christ as lower on the rung of spiritual evolution waiting to evolve.
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
"It is a law of the universe that in all things there is prior existence. Before every form there is a prior, but lesser evolved form. Each one of us is evolving towards the God-head." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, as quoted in Sir John Templeton, The Humble Approach: Scientists Discover God (Templeton Foundation Press, 1998): 92.
Deification is obvious here.
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
"As we know, the belief that the human individual cannot perfect himself or fully exist except through the organic unification of all men in God is essential and fundamental to Christian doctrine." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, The Future of Mankind (New York and Evanston: Harper & Row, 1959).
The promise is not that we would be one with God, but family with God.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
"Once complete unity has been achieved, Christ—who will be the Omega Point—will appear; man will then be more than man, will be what Teilhard called Ultra-Human, the cosmos will be transformed; and the glory of it all will be established" Malachi Martin, The Jesuits (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1988): 288
matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Eventuallly Chardin was rightly charged with heresy. Yet it is obvious from remarks of Pope John Paul II on evolution that his influence has grown and there has been a large migration from Catholicism to the New Age. So theistic evolution is quite pagan in His ideology.
Evolution was developed with pagan roots. "Alfred Russel Wallace, OM, FRS (8 January 1823 – 7 November 1913) was a British naturalist, explorer, geographer, anthropologist and biologist. He is best known for independently conceiving the theory of evolution through natural selection, which prompted Charles Darwin to publish his own ideas in On the Origin of Species. Wallace did extensive fieldwork, first in the Amazon River basin and then in the Malay Archipelago, where he identified the Wallace Line that divides the Indonesian archipelago into two distinct parts, a western portion in which the animals are largely of Asian origin, and an eastern portion where the birds and mammals are more similar to those of Australia. He was considered the 19th century's leading expert on the geographical distribution of animal species and is sometimes called the "father of biogeography".[1] Wallace was one of the leading evolutionary thinkers of the 19th century and made many other contributions to the development of evolutionary theory besides being co-discoverer of natural selection. These included the concept of warning colouration in animals, and the Wallace effect, a hypothesis on how natural selection could contribute to speciation by encouraging the development of barriers against hybridization."
"Spiritualism is a belief system or religion, postulating the belief that spirits of the dead residing in the spirit world have both the ability and the inclination to communicate with the living. Anyone may receive spirit messages, but formal communication sessions (séances) are held by "mediums," who can then provide information about the afterlife.[1]"
"Many scientists who investigated the phenomenon also became converts. They included chemist and physicist William Crookes (1832–1919), evolutionary biologist Alfred Russel Wallace (1823–1913)[18] and Nobel-laureate physiologist Charles Richet. Other prominent adherents included journalist and pacifist William T. Stead (1849–1912)[19] and physician and author Arthur Conan Doyle (1859–1930).[17]
^ The Scientific Aspect of the Supernatural, Alfred Russel Wallace, 1866.
"Alfred Russel Wallace believed qualitative novelties could arise through the process of spiritual evolution, in particular the phenomena of life and mind, Wallace attributed these novelties to a supernatural agency.[43] Later in his life, Wallace was advocate of spiritualism and believed in an immaterial origin for the higher mental faculties of humans, he believed that evolution suggested that the universe had a purpose, and that certain aspects of living organisms are not explainable in terms of purely materialistic processes, in a 1909 magazine article entitled The World of Life, which he later expanded into a book of the same name.[44] Wallace argued in his 1911 book World of life for a spiritual approach to evolution and described evolution as “creative power, directive mind and ultimate purpose”. Wallace believed natural selection could not explain intelligence or morality in the human being so suggested that non-material spiritual forces accounted for these. Wallace believed the spiritual nature of man could not have come about by natural selection alone, the origins of the spiritual nature must originate “in the unseen universe of spirit”.[45][46]"spiritualism wikipedia
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
accomodating or propaganda
Pierre Teilhard De' chardin role in the piltdown man fraud.
"Since the truth about Piltdown Man was revealed, there have been many suspects implicated in the forgery. Dawson was the prime suspect. But he died in 1916, so scientists never had the chance to question his possible role in the hoax. Teilhard de Chardin, who found the isolated canine tooth on his own, is another possibility. One of Smith Woodward’s colleagues, Martin Hinton, may have also played a role. In 1978, workers found an old trunk of Hinton’s at the Natural History Museum in London. The trunk held teeth and bones stained in a similar way as the Piltodwn Man fossils. Despite much interest and speculation, no one has ever definitively tied any of these men to the hoax."
Smithsonian.com :Hominid Hunting "How to Solve Human Evolution’s Greatest Hoax"
December 19, 2012
Pierre Teilhard De' Chardin is consider one fo the founding fathers of theistic evolution. Yet He also pushed evolutionary propaganda. Whether he takes the fall for piltdown man, which he at least propagated and the erronius canine tooth. It is obvious that theistic evolution is not the mere result of a merger between atheism and Christianity. In fact, it is in reality the original evolutionary worldview.
2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Death before the fall
If death was before the fall of Adam what did Adam bring?
Roman 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Evry thing about death is tied to Adam. If evolution/old earth is true, then why? Afterall death was the work of God prior to the garden. Adam should be then innocent.
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Why is eternal life tied to christ? If death wasn't tied to Adam eternal life can't be tied to Christ.
6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
What sin was there, before the garden of eden? If there was no sin, why was there death? The curse of death has plagued many evolutionary Christians and caused many to loose their faith.
8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
23 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
If death was not connected to Adam, then animal suffering is unchanging.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
This is a grave contradiction. Is death very good? Many Christians who accepted theistic evolution have now left the faith altogether because of this issue. If we have an ancient earth that is nothing more than an ongoing cycle of death and God considers that to be paradise then how good is God? Another issue is that neanderthals have been found to have cancer. Cancer is a mutation. How can God be a good God to give a humanoid creature a flawed design and existence without sin?
A creationist anser would argue that these are post flood and the dating methods are corrupt so the curses happened after adam sinned.
BioLogos) Theistic Evolution making a comeback among protestants.
In a Nutshell
"In recent decades, scientists have discovered more about the beginnings of humanity. The fossil record shows a gradual transition over 5 million years ago from chimpanzee-size creatures to hominids with larger brains who walked on two legs. Later hominids used fire and stone tools and had brains as large as modern humans. Fossils of homo sapiens in east Africa date back nearly 200,000 years. Humans developed hearths for fire, stone points for spears and arrows, and cave paintings by 30,000 years ago. By 10,000 years ago, humans had spread throughout the globe. Genetic studies support the same picture. Humans share more DNA with chimpanzees than with any other animal, suggesting that humans and chimps share a relatively recent common ancestor. Also, the same defective genes appear in both humans and chimps, at the same locations in the genome—an observation difficult to explain except by common ancestry. Genetics also tells us that the human population today descended from more than two people. Evolution happens not to individuals but to populations, and the amount of genetic diversity in the gene pool today suggests that the human population was never smaller than several thousand individuals. Yet all humans, of all races, are descended from this group. Humanity is one family." (biologos website)
So if humanity is one family are chimpansees, and neaderthals a part of that family?
If neanderthals are not human, is every race completely human? should we treat chimpanzees as citizens or should we go back to nazism and take away the rights of "inferior" races? How could neanderthals have died considering that they supposedly lived before adam and therefore never sinned?
Remember without the existence of thiestic evolutionist, the holocaust would not have been possible. It is obvious that if God had made genetically separated races through evolution than God is in fact racist.
The devil is in the details! Can evolutionist consistently be conservative evangelicals? Let's see....
"1.We believe the Bible is the inspired and authoritative word of God. By the Holy Spirit it is the “living and active” means through which God speaks to the church today, bearing witness to God’s Son, Jesus, as the divine Logos, or Word of God.
2.We believe that God also reveals himself in and through the natural world he created, which displays his glory, eternal power, and divine nature. Properly interpreted, Scripture and nature are complementary and faithful witnesses to their common Author."
This says the Bible is authoritative, but how much authority does it have? The document doesn't say. Is it the sole authority?(sola scriptura) The document doesn't say. The Bible is not the only source of revelation though. Because the natural world is a source revelation. This is the Roman Catholic doctrine of natural revelation invented by Thomas aquinas. Yet the theistic evolutionist seem to go farther as they have not stated whether natural revelation is of equal authority with scripture.
"3.We believe that all people have sinned against God and are in need of salvation."
What are people? After all the website claims that humans are descended from apes; are they people as well? Do animals sin? What is sin? and what is salvation? Theistic evolution teaches that death is natural. So then death is not a problem. So what is salvation? It doesn't make since for salvation to be eternal life, because death is not a problem so eternal life is an unneeded remedy.
"4.We believe in the historical incarnation of Jesus Christ as fully God and fully man. We believe in the historical death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, by which we are saved and reconciled to God."
Ok, What is God? What is man? What does it mean for Jesus to be fully of either? This is irrational for the sake of political agreement.
Why is does Jesus death help save? What is the motive of Christ's resurrection? Reconciled to God is understandable, but why does death accomplish that? Everyone dies.
"5.We believe that God is directly involved in the lives of people today through acts of redemption, personal transformation, and answers to prayer.
6.We believe that God typically sustains the world using faithful, consistent processes that humans describe as "natural laws." Yet we also affirm that God works outside of natural law in supernatural events, including the miracles described in Scripture. In both natural and supernatural ways, God continues to be directly involved in creation and in human history."
What is a natural law? The word is typically used to describe universal ethical laws. But here biologos is using the term much like what we would describe as the "laws of science". However, how do they know what they are talking about? How do we know that God has committed Himself to only function to an undefined set of natural rules? Who defines the laws of nature? And if He did make those rules, why would he break them?
"7.We believe that the methods of science are an important and reliable means to investigate and describe the world God has made. In this, we stand with a long tradition of Christians for whom Christian faith and science are mutually hospitable. Therefore, we reject ideologies such as Materialism and Scientism that claim science is the sole source of knowledge and truth, that science has debunked God and religion, or that the physical world constitutes the whole of reality."
Which methods of science? Just the hard sciences or soft sciences as well? What about disputable sciences?(psychology, crypto-zoology, meta physics etc.)
Why do they reject "scientism"? They give no intellectual justification.
"8.We believe that God created the universe, the earth, and all life over billions of years. God continues to sustain the existence and functioning of the natural world, and the cosmos continues to declare the glory of God. Therefore, we reject ideologies such as Deism that claim the universe is self-sustaining, that God is no longer active in the natural world, or that God is not active in human history."
Why did God take billions of years? Why not millions or trillions? Exactly how many years? If God breaks the laws of nature is the natural world actually sustained? It may be a world, but it is no longer natural.
"9.We believe that the diversity and interrelation of all life on earth are best explained by the God-ordained process of evolution with common descent. Thus, evolution is not in opposition to God, but a means by which God providentially achieves his purposes. Therefore, we reject ideologies that claim that evolution is a purposeless process or that evolution replaces God."
1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
10.We believe that God created humans in biological continuity with all life on earth, but also as spiritual beings. God established a unique relationship with humanity by endowing us with his image and calling us to an elevated position within the created order.
So God created Jesus in biological continuity with all life on earth?
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
"11.We believe that conversations among Christians about controversial issues of science and faith can and must be conducted with humility, grace, honesty, and compassion as a visible sign of the Spirit’s presence in Christ’s body, the Church."
This assumes that we are all unified in an invisible body they call the church. The word church means a visible organization. Besides this I can't in good conscience assume that an evolutionist is automatically a saved brother or sister. This is political propaganda to get evolution into the evangelical world and destroy the scriptures.
Existential philosophyTheistic evolutionist typically have bipassed difficulties with the scripture using existential philosophy. The idea of faith as a form of imagination. having a subjective world within objective materialism.
faith is true; not imaginary) This view of faith has to involve the human imagination. Making spirituality virtually irrational. Faith is no longer a set of propositions; instead it is a work of the human heart. Leaving it in conflict with the gospel (sola fide') and lending itself to catholic mysticism.
materialism still fails without a supernatural God) This philosophy leaves one blind to the problems of evolutionary theory. even if you separate the world it still has to be coherent to be true.
So theistic evolutionist need a different God altogether to explain evolutionary leaps!
Obviously this system of God helping to give us a godless society is not only irrational but demonic as well. God got it right when he created us and He'll get it right when he restores us!!
Saturday, March 16, 2013
Tuesday, March 5, 2013
It's because of the Blood! the reason why blood atonement is necessary
A core issue between monotheistic religions is that the judeo-christian God requires blood atonement in the light of the present reality of sin. many from the islamic tradition argue that scriptures were tainted and that they hold to the abrahamic religion..
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Why does Christianity have such a law?
Because blood is the source of life.
Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
This comes as a result of sin.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Death is the penalty of sin, which Adam brought to mankind
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
But yet Adam and Eve did not instantly die. Why?
Genesis 321 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
God had provided a sacrifice. But this was not a permanent sacrifice.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But some may argue that this is only a perverted interpretation of the OT using the New Testament.
However let us see How God treats blood sacrifice verse another type of offering.
Genesis 4
4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Nottice that God did not approve of the sacrifice without blood? Also God was being reasonable, he had not yet rejected Cain altogether. But Can fell in sin. Why was he so weak? Because he was not in accord with God the Father.
hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Here the scriptures reiterate that abel's sacrifice was superior. It also states that this was true in light of the fact that Abel sacrificed in Faith. This would imply that Cain did not sacrifice in faith. He gave an offering. As if he were not a sinner! He was a sinner like his father Adam and needed atonement for His sins. His sacrifice was in Pride.
matthew 23 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Jesus prophesies against those who have tortured his prophets! Do not despise the Blood!
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Please pray over these things!
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Why does Christianity have such a law?
Because blood is the source of life.
Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
This comes as a result of sin.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Death is the penalty of sin, which Adam brought to mankind
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
But yet Adam and Eve did not instantly die. Why?
Genesis 321 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
God had provided a sacrifice. But this was not a permanent sacrifice.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But some may argue that this is only a perverted interpretation of the OT using the New Testament.
However let us see How God treats blood sacrifice verse another type of offering.
Genesis 4
4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Nottice that God did not approve of the sacrifice without blood? Also God was being reasonable, he had not yet rejected Cain altogether. But Can fell in sin. Why was he so weak? Because he was not in accord with God the Father.
hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Here the scriptures reiterate that abel's sacrifice was superior. It also states that this was true in light of the fact that Abel sacrificed in Faith. This would imply that Cain did not sacrifice in faith. He gave an offering. As if he were not a sinner! He was a sinner like his father Adam and needed atonement for His sins. His sacrifice was in Pride.
matthew 23 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Jesus prophesies against those who have tortured his prophets! Do not despise the Blood!
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Please pray over these things!
Monday, February 18, 2013
Rock of Ages!!!
The history of Charles Lyell and uniformitarianism
"Lyell entered Exeter College, Oxford in 1816, and attended William Buckland's lectures. He graduated B.A. second class in classics, December 1819, and M.A. 1821.[2][3] After graduation he took up law as a profession, entering Lincoln's Inn in 1820. He completed a circuit through rural England, where he could observe geological phenomena. In 1821 he attended Robert Jameson's lectures in Edinburgh, and visited Gideon Mantell at Lewes, in Sussex. In 1823 he was elected joint secretary of the Geological Society. As his eyesight began to deteriorate, he turned to geology as a full-time profession.[3] His first paper, "On a recent formation of freshwater limestone in Forfarshire", was presented in 1822.[3] By 1827, he had abandoned law and embarked on a geological career that would result in fame and the general acceptance of uniformitarianism, a working out of the idea proposed by James Hutton a few decades earlier."
Wikipedia "Charles lyell"
It is important to nottice that Lyell was not trained as much of a scientist himself, but more educated in the field of being a lawyer. So most of His work was based upon the findings of James Hutton and his theory of plutonism. Evolutionist are fond of criticizing academic credentials even though the founders were soo unacredited.
"Plutonism (or vulcanism) is the geologic theory that the rocks forming the Earth were formed in fire by volcanic activity, with a continuing gradual process of weathering and erosion wearing away rocks, which were then deposited on the sea bed, re-formed into layers of sedimentary rock by heat and pressure, and raised again. It proposed that basalt was solidified molten magma. It was named after Pluto, the classical ruler of the underworld, or alternatively after Vulcan, the ancient Roman god of fire and volcanoes."
"The Frenchmen Compte de Buffon (a Roman Catholic, but likely a secret skeptic) postulated that the earth had gradually cooled from a molten lava state over at least 70,000 years and Pierre Laplace (a strong atheist) imagined that the solar system had slowly condensed from a gaseous nebula. The German Abraham Werner and the Scottish James Hutton (both deists) developed geological theories that the sedimentary strata formed slowly over millions of years. "
The 19th century scriptural geologists: historical background by Dr. Terry Mortenson, AiG–USA
"The catastrophists dominated the first 35 years or so. They believed that the geological/fossil record could only be explained by imagining that there had been several or many global or regional floods in earth history. George Cuvier, a famous French comparative anatomist and nominal Protestant, published his influential Theory of the Earth in 1813 (English version; the original in French was published a year earlier in Paris under a slightly different title). From studying the fossils found in the rocks in and around Paris he believed that the earth had suffered at least three or four floods, the last of which was Noah’s Flood."
The 19th century scriptural geologists: historical background by Dr. Terry Mortenson, AiG–USA
" The theory was first proposed before 1750, by Abbé Anton Moro who had studied volcanic islands, and was subsequently developed by James Hutton as part of his Theory of the Earth published in 1788. It contested Abraham Werner's neptunist theory which proposed that the Earth had formed from a mass of water and suspended material which had formed rocks as layers of deposited sediment which became the continents when the water retreated, further layers being deposited by floods and some volcanic activity." Wikipedia" plutonism"
"Uniformitarianism is the assumption that the same natural laws and processes that operate in the universe now, have always operated in the universe in the past and apply everywhere in the universe. It has included the gradualistic concept that "the present is the key to the past" and is functioning at the same rates. Uniformitarianism has been a key principle of geology and virtually all fields of science, but naturalism's modern geologists, while accepting that geology has occurred across deep time, no longer hold to a strict gradualism.
Uniformitarianism was formulated by Scottish naturalists in the late 18th century, starting with the work of the geologist James Hutton, which was refined by John Playfair and popularised by Charles Lyell's Principles of Geology in 1830.[1] The term uniformitarianism was coined by William Whewell, who also coined the term catastrophism for the idea that Earth was shaped by a series of sudden, short-lived, violent events.[2]"
Wikipedia "uniformitarianism"
"The contributions he made to correct understandings of ignaceous rocks is large. but his outstanding acheivement was formulation of the uniformitarian principle, which states that natural agents now at work on and within the earth have repeated with general uniformity through immensely long periods of time."
"Hutton reasoning inductively from a wealth of evidence, concluded that the earth dates from the remote past ; he could see no vestige of a beginning- no prospect of an end."
ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA Geology: B. 18th century
Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
naturalistic assumptions: Uniformitarianism most obvious operates under the worldview of naturalism. There is nothing fundamentally different about our ancient past.
One thing of interest is that Sutton's theory provides no origin of the earth. But how does the earth exist if it was never caused? We know the earth is limited and that it changes. If this theory is designed to accomodate an eternal earth, how can it give explanation for the age of the earth?
Essentially this leads one to a pantheistic worldview. The idea that matter is eternal. This could not be the case. Matter is not eternal due to entropy. Because energy escapes and matter breaks down.
So the gravity and rotation of the earth would eventually break down. So at somepoint, something had to get the earth started. The naturalist answer for this is in the "big bang theory". Which would be a starting point but would still require the miraculous to take place to have nothing to turn into something. However if there is a required intervention wouldn't this theory fall apart? Because there can not be something supernatural in an solely natural world.
So originally uniformatarianism descended from a form of pantheism. Then it was adapted to a form of deism. The ages are kept at a long range in order to support this theory; also they are used to accompany the idea of biological evolution. And vice versa.
Obvious bias
Lyell was not a geologist by training. he was a lawyer. Which is the essence of bias. Lawyers are paid to deliver a onesided arguement.
"I devoured Lamark... his theories delighted me... I am glad that he has been courageous enough and logical enough to admit that his argument, if pushed as far as it must go, if worth anything, would prove that men may have come from the Ourang-Outang. But after all, what changes species may really undergo!... That the Earth is quite as old as he supposes, has long been my creed..."Lyell K. 1881. The life and letters of Sir Charles Lyell. 2 vols, London. vol. 1 p. 168
Lyell had even stated that his goal was to "free the science from moses" life and letters and journals john murray 1881
1Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
An unproven system:
If we were to find the system of uniformitarianism to be true, we would have to find Lyell's model of geological strata as consistent across the face of the earth. When in fact we have not found this. In fact there are few locations on the earth that have this specific order and we do not have.
"Whatever the method or approach, the geologist must take cognizance of the following facts... There is no place on earth where a complete record of the rocks is present.... To reconstruct the history of the earth, scattered bits of information from thousands of locations all over the world must be placed together. The results will be at best only a very incomplete record. If the complete history of the earth is compared to an encyclopedia of 30 volumes, then we can seldom hope to find even one comeplete volume in a given area. Sometimes only a few chapters, perhaps only a paragraph or two, will be the total geological contribution of a region; indeed, we are often reduced to studying scattering bits of information more nearly comparable to a few words of letters." Brown Monnet and Stovel Introduction to Geology
Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
Ties with evolution
"I devoured Lamark... his theories delighted me... I am glad that he has been courageous enough and logical enough to admit that his argument, if pushed as far as it must go, if worth anything, would prove that men may have come from the Ourang-Outang. But after all, what changes species may really undergo!... That the Earth is quite as old as he supposes, has long been my creed..." [16]"
Lyell K. 1881. The life and letters of Sir Charles Lyell. 2 vols, London. vol. 1 p. 168
"If I had stated... the possibility of the introduction or origination of fresh species being a natural, in contradistinction to a miraculous process, I should have raised a host of prejudices against me, which are unfortunately opposed at every step to any philosopher who attempts to address the public on these mysterious subjects".[18]
Lyell to William Whewell, March 7, 1837. In Lyell K. 1881. The life and letters of Sir Charles Lyell. 2 vols, London. vol. 2 p. 5
In dating the age of the fossils, they use circular reasoning having the rock layers dated by the fossils.
You may love luci but where is desi?
When we find a fossil or skelaton what can we prove?
Other than the fact that it used to be a living thing.
We have no proof that luci had any relative and we have no proof that lucy was not simply a mutant.
If the geological column has been debunked then how do we know its age?
More important is the question of "where is the missing link?" Because now if we accept a connection between apes and man how do we link them with another species?
Now I am not dealing with an exhaustive argument of lucy. Many point out that this creature was a knuckle walker, that the knee is not original. That many paintings portray human parts when the skelatons shows no evidence.
What I am saying is that if all these things are proven accurate on the evolution case they still have not proven to have a valid case for this being mankinds ancestor.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Proper Logic
A. Science bases it's information upon the obersvation of present facts.
B. History bases it's information based on the obseervation of recorded facts
C. Since Science focuses on observation of the present and history observes the past. History has a more reliable information concerning the past.
D. If Uniformitarianism is evidentially neutral and it does not have historical support. (human history is limited to 5-6,000 years) then we need to look to the best historical evidence.
The crafty snake
There was a snake early on who changed every thing! ......
Not that guy!
Titaniboa!!
This massive snake fossil ranging from 50-150ft(estimation because we are unaware if the complete fossil was preserved) has stirred up some controversy in the scientific community.
Because a giant cold blooded animal would require very warm weather. even in columbia the weather would have had to be about 10 degrees hotter.
There are other giant repties in this record of fossils as well. For instance a giant aligator and tortoise. So many scientist are convinced that this proves the climate there was warmer. But if this is true then it proves that giant cold blooded reptiles existed in the past.
Previous scientists under a uniformitarian philosophy would not draw this conclusion. They took the millions of dinosaur fossils and claimed that they were actually warm blooded. in order to keep with this school of thought. This is why we heard so much about dinosaurs being linked in evolution with birds.
But now there is nothing inconcisstent and dinosaurs were probably cold blooded. therefore the earth was warmer. Hence the natural processes of the earth were not uniformitarian.
Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-Titanoboa-the-40-Foot-Long-Snake-Was-Found.html#ixzz2B52GpyOm Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-Titanoboa-the-40-Foot-Long-Snake-Was-Found.html#ixzz2B4zC2L4G
Not only do we see the need for a warmer climate but we also see the need for a higher oxygen level due to the findings of giant insect fossils. Insects breath through there skin and could not sustain enough oxygen for a large body.
"Reign of the giant insects ended with the evolution of birds
June 04, 2012
By Tim Stephens
" Giant insects ruled the prehistoric skies during periods when Earth's atmosphere was rich in oxygen. Then came the birds. After the evolution of birds about 150 million years ago, insects got smaller despite rising oxygen levels, according to a new study by scientists at the University of California, Santa Cruz. ..."
"This fossil insect wing (Stephanotypus schneideri) from the period about 300 million years ago when insects reached their greatest sizes, measures 19.5 centimeters (almost eight inches) long. The largest species of that time were even bigger, with wings 30 centimeters long. For comparison, the inset shows the wing of the largest dragonfly of the past 65 million years. ..."
http://news.ucsc.edu/2012/06/giant-insects.html
Genesis 6:4a "There were giants in the earth in those days;"
keep it in the canopy!
Why was the atmosphere so different?
While creationist scientist have different opinions. I believe the bible has the answer to this as well. In the creation story there was a canopy over the earth. I believe this was a cloud of ice/hydrogen particle. Similar to the ice clouds over the planet urinus. God had perfectly arranged them there to provide a utopian environment. That was rich in oxygen and heat without the harmful radiation we recieve nowadays.
This is not simply a new theory. This was a historic observation by many tribes and natians and cultures in the ancient world.
"The notion of the sky as a solid object (rather than just an atmospheric expanse) was widespread among both ancient civilisations and primitive cultures, including ancient Greece, Egypt, China, India, native Americans, Australian aborigines, and also early Christians.[25]
The sky is depicted as a solid dome arched over the earth in both Mesopotamian and Indo-European mythologies (e.g., creation myths) and poetry. The Sumerian sky-god An ruled these firmament-like "heavens", which the wind-god had separated from the flat disc of the earth below, and there were primordial seas above the firmament. Ancient Indians also believed in a solid sky: "Firm is the sky and firm is the earth," says the Rig Veda.[25] This approach to cosmology is probably universal, and is also encountered in mythologies of the New World." Wikipedia firmament
Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Give the Bible a chance!
The Bible is the most historical of the ancient accounts.
A. It has the longest record. (most histories do not exeed 5,000 years)
B. Everything is linked in specific geneologies.
C. It has been confirmed in many cases by archaeology (a classic example is the record of the hittites which scholars denied.)
D. The point of a global flooded is corroborated universally. (virtually every ancient culture agrees to this much.
E. historic geology) the early geologist assumed a catastrophic flood.
all the earth has marine biology in the fossil records.
Obviously If you believe The scripture is the Word of God, You are more likely to hold this as true. Also if you reject scriptures you will not like the idea of accepting such an incredible event.
To this I ask you the following is it the logic that is the problem here... or is it the consequences? If the World was once destroyed it could be so again. If the biblical account is true, it may mean that the God of the Bible is real and that I am accountable to Him. You may look at the earth and find all of the destruction caused by rejecting the God of the Bible. And if this is bother you I encourage you to research www.biblesmack.net and read what the scripture says about salvation.
1 Peter3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Monday, February 4, 2013
metaphysical monster: The voodoo of Word of Faith theology
The metaphysics movement or "new thought" was popular at the turn of the 20thcentury. One left over version was the christian science movement. But a more popular movement accepted in many churches within orthodox christianity is known as the word of Faith movement.
"New Thought, sometimes known as Higher Thought,[1][2] promotes the ideas that Infinite Intelligence, or God, is everywhere, spirit is the totality of real things, true human selfhood is divine, divine thought is a force for good, sickness originates in the mind, and "right thinking" has a healing effect.[3][4]
Although New Thought is neither monolithic nor doctrinaire, in general, modern day adherents of New Thought believe that "God" or "Infinite Intelligence" is "supreme, universal, and everlasting", that divinity dwells within each person, that all people are spiritual beings, that "the highest spiritual principle [is] loving one another unconditionally... and teaching and healing one another", and that "our mental states are carried forward into manifestation and become our experience in daily living".[3][4]
The New Thought movement is a spiritually-focused or philosophical interpretation of New Thought beliefs. Started in the early 19th century, today the movement consists of a loosely allied group of religious denominations, secular membership organizations,[citation needed] authors, philosophers, and individuals who share a set of beliefs concerning metaphysics, positive thinking, the law of attraction, healing, life force, creative visualization, and personal power.[5] The three major religious denominations within the New Thought movement are Religious Science, Unity Church and the Church of Divine Science. There are many other smaller churches within the New Thought movement, as well as schools and umbrella organizations. " wikipedia "New Thought"
"One popular critic and opponent of The Word of Faith, D.R. McConnell of Oral Roberts University, has charged in a thesis entitled Kenyon Connection, that Kenyon adopted the teachings of New Thought and relabeled them. Thus, the Word of Faith movement, in McConnell’s view, constitutes a "Trojan Horse". This argument was the primary conclusion reached by McConnell’s master’s thesis published as a book, A Different Gospel." wikipedia "Word of Faith"
What is faith?
"it is the force of faith which makes the spirit world function" the Laws of Prosperity pg. 19 Kenneth Copeland Publications
"God can not do anythingfor you apart or separate from faith"
"faith is God's source of power" Freedom from Fear pg 11-12 Kenneth Copeland ministries
Romans 4:17(kjv) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Romans 4:17 As it is written, I have made you the father of many nations. [He was appointed our father] in the sight of God in Whom he believed, Who gives life to the dead and speaks of the nonexistent things that [He has foretold and promised] as if they [already] existed. (amplified)
One Word of Faith teacher defined faith through this passage as many do. "Calling those things which be not as though they are."
Now philosophically there is a problem at the start. In a metaphysical philosophy faith is the ability to believe in something untrue. So Faith defined in metaphysic terms is to create something true out of something false.
So when we have faith in God... Is God not true, Is He only in our imagination?
How do we read the Bible?
The Bible as a spell book
Many Times preachers in the Word of Faith movement will use scripture as an authority with out the use of hermeneutics. In otherds Words they will disregard the context of the verses they quote. Then they will place authority on what they have said. This means that they can change and even add meaning to the Bible. Is this method scriptural?
1 Cor.14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
God wants us to take the scripture according to it's context. we have to be careful how we handel the word of God.
2Cor. 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
The use of the Amplified Bible... The amplified Bible is an interesting translation that provides the reader with built in commentary and leaves a lot of words with a variety of possible translations as oppose to actually translating the text.
This is a fine Bible study tool. Yet leaves a lot of room for confusion especially for those young in the faith. As we shall soon see the Word of Faith movement thrives off of confusion and irrational theology.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
What is man?
psalm 8:5 Yet You have made him but a little lower than God [or heavenly beings], and You have crowned him with glory and honor.
In Word of Faith teaching man is not simply a mortal being but a creature intended to have deity.
"God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself." "He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even." Following the Faith of Abraham, tape#01-3001, side 1.
Hebrews 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Here the author of Hebrews settles the controversy, man is lower than the angels. Who by the way are lower than christ. since being lower than the angels is lower than God there is no controversy and in no real or ontological way is man the same as God.
What is God?
In Word of Faith theology God is an enchanced man who became a deity. This is very similar to the mormon Gospel. I believe there is probably some influence from various groups descending out of Missouri were the original mormons dwelled.
"God is not 427 feet tall, weighing 4000lbs, and got a fist as big as this room. He's big, but He's not a monster. He measured out Heaven with a nine inch span...The distance between my thumb and my finger is not quite nine inches. So I know he is bigger than me thank God. Amen?" Jerrry Savelle
framing your world with the Word of God part 2 audiotape #ss-36, side one Jerrry Savelle evangelistic association
deuteronomy 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Is God Sovereign?
john 10:10 The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it [b]overflows).
A word of faith teacher taught that this was a watershed verse. Claiming the God was not fully Sovereign because evil existed.
Ultimately this leads to the heresy of manichaeinism. The idea of 2 Gods one which is evil, and one which is Good. WOF teachers commonly give godlike attributes to Satan.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
God is sovereign over all things. While I do not conclude that this passage teaches that God is the creator of moral evil. God is definitely Sovereign and in control of destruction upon the earth.
Are we healed?
Isaiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.
He endured physically for our spiritual sins. Therefore by his physical stripes we are spiritually healed.
Are we supposed to be wealhy?
3john 2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in every way and [that your body] may keep well, even as [I know] your soul keeps well and prospers
3 john1 The elder unto the well beloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
It doesn't take long to nottice that this is not a proclamation from the father but john the apostle giving a greeting to Gaius.
Is this an indictment of all charismatics?
"Furthermore, it is tragic that a number of non-charismatics have attempted to use the faith teachers to prove that the charismatic movement is in chaos." Hank Hannengraaf Christianity in Crises pg. 48
There are many charasmatic teachers who are thoroughly orthodox and not involved with the word of faith movement. Walter Martin, Gordon Fee, Keith Green, Wayne Grudem etc.
What are man's words compared to God's Words?
The Damned Savior
"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have [aid your price. No, the punishment was to go to hell itself and to serve time in Hell separated from God.... Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence." Frederick K. C. Price Ever increasing Faith Messenger (june 1980)
"Because he was "made sin," impregnated with sin, and became the very essence of sin, on the cross he was banished from God's presence as a loathesome thing. He and sin were made synonymous...It was not sufficient for christ to offer up only his physical life on the cross. His pure human spirit had to descend into Hell.... His spirit must not only descend into hell, but into the lowest hell...
The Father turned Him over, not only to the death of calvary, but to the satanic torturers of his pure spirit as part of the just desert of the sin of all the race. As long as Christ was "the essence of sin" he was at Satan's mercy in that place of torment...
While Christ identified with sin, Satan and the host of hell ruled Him as over any lost sinner. During that seemingly endless age in the nether abyss of death, Satan did with Him as He would, and all hell was "in carnival" Paul Billheimer Destined for the Throne pg 83-84
But the gospel is explained in the scripture…
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The Subject of the Gospel is Jesus Christ and what He did. It is this gospel which saves us.
Romans 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
And the Gospel cannot be altered.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Now I am not accusing all of altering the gospel. But I know that there are teachers in this tradition who are. And a little leaven leaven’s the whole lump.
I shouldn’t have to see a teacher of God’s Word get nervous hearing me talk about how great heaven will be. Because this is the truth.
Matthew 6:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Heaven is not currently on the earth right now and for Good reason. The scripture teaches it would be corrupted.
I pray for anyone encounetering this teaching that they place faith in God through scripture and not man-made religion.
quotations gathered from "christianity in crises" by Hank Hannengraff
"New Thought, sometimes known as Higher Thought,[1][2] promotes the ideas that Infinite Intelligence, or God, is everywhere, spirit is the totality of real things, true human selfhood is divine, divine thought is a force for good, sickness originates in the mind, and "right thinking" has a healing effect.[3][4]
Although New Thought is neither monolithic nor doctrinaire, in general, modern day adherents of New Thought believe that "God" or "Infinite Intelligence" is "supreme, universal, and everlasting", that divinity dwells within each person, that all people are spiritual beings, that "the highest spiritual principle [is] loving one another unconditionally... and teaching and healing one another", and that "our mental states are carried forward into manifestation and become our experience in daily living".[3][4]
The New Thought movement is a spiritually-focused or philosophical interpretation of New Thought beliefs. Started in the early 19th century, today the movement consists of a loosely allied group of religious denominations, secular membership organizations,[citation needed] authors, philosophers, and individuals who share a set of beliefs concerning metaphysics, positive thinking, the law of attraction, healing, life force, creative visualization, and personal power.[5] The three major religious denominations within the New Thought movement are Religious Science, Unity Church and the Church of Divine Science. There are many other smaller churches within the New Thought movement, as well as schools and umbrella organizations. " wikipedia "New Thought"
"One popular critic and opponent of The Word of Faith, D.R. McConnell of Oral Roberts University, has charged in a thesis entitled Kenyon Connection, that Kenyon adopted the teachings of New Thought and relabeled them. Thus, the Word of Faith movement, in McConnell’s view, constitutes a "Trojan Horse". This argument was the primary conclusion reached by McConnell’s master’s thesis published as a book, A Different Gospel." wikipedia "Word of Faith"
What is faith?
"it is the force of faith which makes the spirit world function" the Laws of Prosperity pg. 19 Kenneth Copeland Publications
"God can not do anythingfor you apart or separate from faith"
"faith is God's source of power" Freedom from Fear pg 11-12 Kenneth Copeland ministries
Romans 4:17(kjv) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Romans 4:17 As it is written, I have made you the father of many nations. [He was appointed our father] in the sight of God in Whom he believed, Who gives life to the dead and speaks of the nonexistent things that [He has foretold and promised] as if they [already] existed. (amplified)
One Word of Faith teacher defined faith through this passage as many do. "Calling those things which be not as though they are."
Now philosophically there is a problem at the start. In a metaphysical philosophy faith is the ability to believe in something untrue. So Faith defined in metaphysic terms is to create something true out of something false.
So when we have faith in God... Is God not true, Is He only in our imagination?
How do we read the Bible?
The Bible as a spell book
Many Times preachers in the Word of Faith movement will use scripture as an authority with out the use of hermeneutics. In otherds Words they will disregard the context of the verses they quote. Then they will place authority on what they have said. This means that they can change and even add meaning to the Bible. Is this method scriptural?
1 Cor.14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
God wants us to take the scripture according to it's context. we have to be careful how we handel the word of God.
2Cor. 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
The use of the Amplified Bible... The amplified Bible is an interesting translation that provides the reader with built in commentary and leaves a lot of words with a variety of possible translations as oppose to actually translating the text.
This is a fine Bible study tool. Yet leaves a lot of room for confusion especially for those young in the faith. As we shall soon see the Word of Faith movement thrives off of confusion and irrational theology.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
What is man?
psalm 8:5 Yet You have made him but a little lower than God [or heavenly beings], and You have crowned him with glory and honor.
In Word of Faith teaching man is not simply a mortal being but a creature intended to have deity.
"God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself." "He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even." Following the Faith of Abraham, tape#01-3001, side 1.
Hebrews 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Here the author of Hebrews settles the controversy, man is lower than the angels. Who by the way are lower than christ. since being lower than the angels is lower than God there is no controversy and in no real or ontological way is man the same as God.
What is God?
In Word of Faith theology God is an enchanced man who became a deity. This is very similar to the mormon Gospel. I believe there is probably some influence from various groups descending out of Missouri were the original mormons dwelled.
"God is not 427 feet tall, weighing 4000lbs, and got a fist as big as this room. He's big, but He's not a monster. He measured out Heaven with a nine inch span...The distance between my thumb and my finger is not quite nine inches. So I know he is bigger than me thank God. Amen?" Jerrry Savelle
framing your world with the Word of God part 2 audiotape #ss-36, side one Jerrry Savelle evangelistic association
deuteronomy 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Is God Sovereign?
john 10:10 The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it [b]overflows).
A word of faith teacher taught that this was a watershed verse. Claiming the God was not fully Sovereign because evil existed.
Ultimately this leads to the heresy of manichaeinism. The idea of 2 Gods one which is evil, and one which is Good. WOF teachers commonly give godlike attributes to Satan.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
God is sovereign over all things. While I do not conclude that this passage teaches that God is the creator of moral evil. God is definitely Sovereign and in control of destruction upon the earth.
Are we healed?
Isaiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.
He endured physically for our spiritual sins. Therefore by his physical stripes we are spiritually healed.
Are we supposed to be wealhy?
3john 2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in every way and [that your body] may keep well, even as [I know] your soul keeps well and prospers
3 john1 The elder unto the well beloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
It doesn't take long to nottice that this is not a proclamation from the father but john the apostle giving a greeting to Gaius.
Is this an indictment of all charismatics?
"Furthermore, it is tragic that a number of non-charismatics have attempted to use the faith teachers to prove that the charismatic movement is in chaos." Hank Hannengraaf Christianity in Crises pg. 48
There are many charasmatic teachers who are thoroughly orthodox and not involved with the word of faith movement. Walter Martin, Gordon Fee, Keith Green, Wayne Grudem etc.
What are man's words compared to God's Words?
The Damned Savior
"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have [aid your price. No, the punishment was to go to hell itself and to serve time in Hell separated from God.... Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence." Frederick K. C. Price Ever increasing Faith Messenger (june 1980)
"Because he was "made sin," impregnated with sin, and became the very essence of sin, on the cross he was banished from God's presence as a loathesome thing. He and sin were made synonymous...It was not sufficient for christ to offer up only his physical life on the cross. His pure human spirit had to descend into Hell.... His spirit must not only descend into hell, but into the lowest hell...
The Father turned Him over, not only to the death of calvary, but to the satanic torturers of his pure spirit as part of the just desert of the sin of all the race. As long as Christ was "the essence of sin" he was at Satan's mercy in that place of torment...
While Christ identified with sin, Satan and the host of hell ruled Him as over any lost sinner. During that seemingly endless age in the nether abyss of death, Satan did with Him as He would, and all hell was "in carnival" Paul Billheimer Destined for the Throne pg 83-84
But the gospel is explained in the scripture…
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The Subject of the Gospel is Jesus Christ and what He did. It is this gospel which saves us.
Romans 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
And the Gospel cannot be altered.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Now I am not accusing all of altering the gospel. But I know that there are teachers in this tradition who are. And a little leaven leaven’s the whole lump.
I shouldn’t have to see a teacher of God’s Word get nervous hearing me talk about how great heaven will be. Because this is the truth.
Matthew 6:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Heaven is not currently on the earth right now and for Good reason. The scripture teaches it would be corrupted.
I pray for anyone encounetering this teaching that they place faith in God through scripture and not man-made religion.
quotations gathered from "christianity in crises" by Hank Hannengraff
Monday, January 14, 2013
Where's the church at anyway? (poetic rap)
Where's the church at anyway?
You here all these busted religious people say.
I can't forget the memory
Kinda hope that it happens to me .
Jesus loved us dearly but he told us straight
That this world won't stop the hate.
So many dead though still be alive.
While we live all messed up and dead inside.
Nobody remembers, no one cares.
Mention their names you get stares.
Used to be... say "Jesus" and you get beat, tortured with your family tossed out on the street.
But what they don't tell you is the death toll wouldn't stop.
Constantine took control
Just to put Peter on the Rock
Confusion in the courts! Empire religion!
Put away your Bibles, the sword is the mission!
Worship Old gods now their just called apostles
But all of the real saints of God are just burnt up fossils
All they wanted was to follow God on their own.
Chased down into caves under candlelight all alone.
Call em left; call em right. they'd worship God all night
The were montanist, donatists, culdees, cathars and novations.
Albigensees, Waldenses, paulicans and nestorians
Hussites Lollards, anabaptists and more.
Neever Shifting or moving their convictions and core.
Picture this, a small pierenes village
The peace gets raped as the land gets pillaged
Families rounded up gathered in one place. they been taught peace, but not at this pace.
Time to take the preacher, most holy teacher,
be an example to the flock of how they gonna treacha!
Beat him and burn him in front of our women and babies
The soldiers are bloodthirsty like they got rabies!
They put us down and beat us; we can't take this no more!
We can't take one more smack of this Babylonian whore!
50 vrs. 120 soldiers; wasn't good odds.
They couldn't survive, they had offended our God.
Amidst their graves we didn't believe what we did!
Why couldn't they live and let live?
After it all we approached the prince with sorrow and feeling needy.
We told him all we wanted was peace, So he signed a treaty.
They let us live, like 5 years.
But only our genocide could stop the tears.
How long oh LORD?
As we wait for vindication.
But now it's all good though life had such frustration.
Now we are with Jesus as he is seated on the throne. While they roast in the underworld all alone...
You here all these busted religious people say.
I can't forget the memory
Kinda hope that it happens to me .
Jesus loved us dearly but he told us straight
That this world won't stop the hate.
So many dead though still be alive.
While we live all messed up and dead inside.
Nobody remembers, no one cares.
Mention their names you get stares.
Used to be... say "Jesus" and you get beat, tortured with your family tossed out on the street.
But what they don't tell you is the death toll wouldn't stop.
Constantine took control
Just to put Peter on the Rock
Confusion in the courts! Empire religion!
Put away your Bibles, the sword is the mission!
Worship Old gods now their just called apostles
But all of the real saints of God are just burnt up fossils
All they wanted was to follow God on their own.
Chased down into caves under candlelight all alone.
Call em left; call em right. they'd worship God all night
The were montanist, donatists, culdees, cathars and novations.
Albigensees, Waldenses, paulicans and nestorians
Hussites Lollards, anabaptists and more.
Neever Shifting or moving their convictions and core.
Picture this, a small pierenes village
The peace gets raped as the land gets pillaged
Families rounded up gathered in one place. they been taught peace, but not at this pace.
Time to take the preacher, most holy teacher,
be an example to the flock of how they gonna treacha!
Beat him and burn him in front of our women and babies
The soldiers are bloodthirsty like they got rabies!
They put us down and beat us; we can't take this no more!
We can't take one more smack of this Babylonian whore!
50 vrs. 120 soldiers; wasn't good odds.
They couldn't survive, they had offended our God.
Amidst their graves we didn't believe what we did!
Why couldn't they live and let live?
After it all we approached the prince with sorrow and feeling needy.
We told him all we wanted was peace, So he signed a treaty.
They let us live, like 5 years.
But only our genocide could stop the tears.
How long oh LORD?
As we wait for vindication.
But now it's all good though life had such frustration.
Now we are with Jesus as he is seated on the throne. While they roast in the underworld all alone...
If you can't join them... BEAT them!!!
So I had another debate with Dr. Sarfati. It is funny how you interact with someone you admire. I have posted a couple times on the group "Jesus is the lamb". Everytime Dr. Sarfati would respond to my post it was critical. So I had the desire to post an article that was good but completely in line with what he taught and I even cited His ministry as a source. Yet after a few weeks no response and then later he went back to critical remarks. Sometimes you are going to across people that you really want to please. Yet they are just not going to be pleased by you. So then he posted this article which I knew was in opposition to me. So I realized that if i could not simply gain his approval I could conquer his opposition and win respect. Ultimately I was counciled by a friend in the group to remember that I should be content with The Lord's approval and not worry about if others(even christians) accept or reject me.
Meanwhile, I believe that the Bible version debate will be the theological and even apologetic debate of the 21st century. As a New age culture picks and probes at the internal integrity of the christian religion we must be ready with an answer. I think me and Dr. Sarfati had a classic arguement which is why I had to post this facebook debate.
Jonathan David Sarfati
“What is overlooked in the approach that assumes that the earlier manuscripts were corrupted and produced by heretics is the fact that virtually all Gospels manuscripts harmonize. That is, in parallel passages between two or more Gospels, virtually all manuscripts, from time to time, change the wording in one Gospel so that it duplicates the wording in another. Would heretics do this? It represents rather a high view of scripture—or, as Paul said in another context, zeal that is not according to knowledge. Further, the great majority of these harmonizations are either found in isolated manuscripts or in later manuscripts. This tells us that the tendencies of the earliest scribes was to harmonize, but because such harmonizations are done sporadically and in isolation they are easily detected. And later scribes produced their copies in great quantities in a heavily concentrated area, resulting in a more systematic harmonization—again, something that is easily detected.”
Five More Myths about Bible Translations and the Transmission of the Text
danielbwallace.com
Matt Singleton I find it interested how you excluded the beginning of this section: "Myth 3: Heretics have severely corrupted the text.
This myth is usually promoted by King James Only folks who assume that the manuscripts that came from Egypt were terribly corrupted. A more sophisticated approach seeks to demonstrate this in passage after passage. For example, would orthodox scribes begin the quotation of Isaiah 40.3 and Malachi 3.1 in Mark 1.2 with “As it is written in Isaiah the prophet”? The alternative reading, found in the majority of manuscripts, reads “As it is written in the prophets.” But the earliest, most widespread reading is “in Isaiah the prophet.” It looks as though the later scribes were troubled by this attribution and they ‘corrected’ it to be more generic so as to include Malachi." So in other words, the later manuscripts have corrected the old errors of the original manuscript. So the short text grew into a more complete text.
December 31, 2012 at 2:06pm · Like..
Matt SIngleton What does that sound like? Something small and simple changing to more complex over long periods of time? evolution? perhaps because the manuscript text critics were also text critics of dating authorship. representing textual evolution. You will also find this evolution going back the evolution of religion which goes back to the evolution of man/anthropology.
December 31, 2012 at 2:11pm · Like..
Matt SIngleton I want to pay careful attention to this section "Scholars have for a long time recognized that the Gospel writers shape their narratives, including the sayings of Jesus. A comparison of the Synoptics reveals this on almost every page. Matthew quotes Jesus differently than Mark does who quotes Jesus differently than Luke does. And John’s Jesus speaks significantly differentyly than the Synoptic Jesus does. Just consider the key theme of Jesus’ ministry in the Synoptics: ‘the kingdom of God’ (or, in Matthew’s rendering, often ‘the kingdom of heaven’). Yet this phrase occurs only twice in John, being replaced usually by ‘eternal life.’ (“Kingdom of God” occurs 53 times in the Gospels, only two of which are in John; “kingdom of heaven” occurs 32 times, all in Matthew. “Eternal life” occurs 8 times in the Synoptics, and more than twice as often in John.) The ancient historians were far more concerned to get the gist of what a speaker said than they were to record his exact words. And if Jesus taught mostly, or even occasionally, in Aramaic, since the Gospels are in Greek the words by definition are not exact." Why do we have to assume differents quotes are all the exact same quotes from different words? Why do we even have to assume that these men are making up stories off of their memory without the divine intervention of the Holy Spirit? I believe that the gospel writers are intelligent and with the revelation and inspiration of the Holy Spirit they are in errant. the words of God were penned by God in heaven psalm 119:89 "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven."
So God had a reason for every Word that was penned down. 2 peter1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
December 31, 2012 at 2:21pm · Like..
Jonathan David Sarfati None of the above shows that the late Byzantine manuscripts are better. About the harmonization, a while ago I responded to someone who brought up:
“Therefore we have the Scriptures today, the "more sure word", and I would also conclude that God's word does not contradict itself, yet the Codex Sinaiticus does in various places including Mark 1:2-3 where it quotes from Malachi and Isaiah, yet attributes it all to Isaiah which is a contradiction.”
My response:
You mean Mark 1:2–4 which says:
"2 It is written in Isaiah the prophet: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way" —
3 "a voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’"
4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins."
The first quotation (v. 2) comes from Malachi 3:1, as you note, and only the second quotation is from Isaiah 40:3. But this is no error, given the Jewish citation methods. The Jews often kept all the Prophets on a single scroll, and so would often cite the most prominent of the prophets. It it more likely that later gentile scribes failed to realize this, and "corrected" the text to "As it is written in the prophets". But there is no error in following the citation conventions of the day rather than 21st-century practices, as various biblioskeptics unreasonably demand.
Another example is in Matthew 27:9–10:
"9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel,
10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me."
Here, most of this was from Zechariah 11:12–13, and only a small allusion to Jeremiah 18:1–4 and 19:1–3, and the field mentioned in Jeremiah 32:6-9. Once more, some scribes tried to "correct" this, but far fewer manuscripts have this "correction" than the previous one. Hence the majority text has exactly the same type of supposed "error" that you criticize.
January 1 at 4:27pm · Like..
Matt SIngleton The Byzantine text is superior to the alexandrine text because it identifies with what the scriptures say about themselves.
Scriptures says that the church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth 1timothy 3:15 and the scriptures are preserved for the assurance of salvation of that true church. 1 Peter 1:23-25
The Byzantine copiest out number the alexandrines almost 100/1.
And they were living at a time where they could evaluate the alexandrines manuscripts as well as manuscripts that we could never see.
"the prophets" is a common biblical phrase and classification of biblical writers. Matthew 11:13
The passage you site in Matthew 27:9-10
Sites Jeremiah as opposed to Isaiah. In the MacArthur study bible study notes on this text it says "Jeremiah came first in the order of prophetic books, so the prophets were sometimes collectively referred to by his name." however that would disqualify the explanation of the alexandrine text of mark 1:2, after all Isaiah would not be the head of the scroll.
Also it maybe that the references to Zechariah were simply illustrative, while the fulfillment of prophecy is literally accomplished in Jeremiah.
And let's get rid of the deceptive notion that the alexandrine texts are somehow the originals. They contradict themselves on 3,000 occaisions vaticanus vrs. Sinaiticus.
And even James white admits that there are thousands of manuscripts which were burned and have simply aged because of use.
But which manuscript has God's people used most?
January 1 at 9:17pm via mobile · Like..
Jonathan David Sarfati Arguments from circumstance mean nothing. Probably hardly any Bible was used for longer than the Vulgate. The above sounds like something a roman Catholic would say, since it is tradition-centred not Bible-centred.
There are no two Byzantine manuscripts that are identical. Nor are any of them identical to the so-called Textus Receptus.
On the issue of prophet citations, here is something from our site—http://creation.com/claimed-bible-errors:
Also, Noel Weeks, PhD in ancient history and languages at Brandeis University under Cyrus Gordon, showed how this actually supported the reliability of Scripture. In an interview in Australian Presbyterian by CMI-supporter Rev. Peter Hastie, he was asked, “Can we say that the Bible is true even though it is imprecise with some of its statements? For example, Matthew attributes a quote from Zechariah to Jeremiah in Matthew 27:9. Isn’t this an instance of imprecision?” Dr Weeks replied:
Let me tell you a story about when I was doing my PhD at Brandeis University in Boston. Brandeis is a leading Jewish university. I remember sitting in a lecture by a very fine Jewish scholar, Nahum Sarna, who was talking about the canon of the Old Testament as it was understood in early Judaism. One of the topics he touched on was the order of the books. He said, “Well, you know that there was a period in which Jeremiah was regarded as the first book of the prophets.” Of course, nobody in the class knew that. Anyway, he continued, “One proof is that you have a quote from Zechariah quoted as being from Jeremiah because in the Jewish way of labelling things you call a book by its first few words, and you call a collection of books by the first book in that collection. Thus one of the evidences that we have of Jeremiah being the first book of the prophets in the first century is the New Testament.” I was sitting there thinking, “This Jewish audience doesn’t understand why that’s an important question, because this particular text has been held up as proof that there are errors in the New Testament. All it says is that the New Testament is a Jewish document. It is speaking in the language that Jews would speak and understand.”
Claimed Bible errors
creation.com
A correspondent claims there are errors in the Bible, but all of the alleged
Matt SIngleton If your position is bible centered then argue from scripture. I showed you where the bible gives detail to it's preservation. Am I right? If so your argument against the text is not according to God's Will, if not, then you should tell my why the scriptures say something else.
Why would denying the superiority of the Catholic bible be catholic? Codex vaticanus is under the control of the Roman catholic church. And until his recent death cardinal Carlo martini committee for the Nestlé/Alund text.
Why does it matter if the Byzantine manuscripts are identical? When are you going to hold the alexandrine manuscripts to any level of accountability?
The Byzantine differs in spelling while the alexandrine differs in canons.
Differences of spelling only show us that there where so many different copyists to destroy the idea of conspiracy.
But when people claim the gospel of mark is the first gospel and yet claim that it does not have an account of the resurrection; you can spin it however you like. But reality bears the fruits of apostates like Bart Ehrman.
As long as you think that there is not a single inspired book on planet earth you will have to compromise with scripture. At which point you will have to give up on key points of your apologetic and eventually, theology.
January 1 at 11:34pm via mobile · Like..
Jonathan David Sarfati Just come out with it: are you KJV-only?
January 2 at 1:35am · Like..
Matt SIngleton I am a preservationist. I believe that God has preserved his word perfectly for us in the Hebrew masoretic text and the Greek textus receptus.
I believe that the authorized version nicknamed Kjv is the standard English translation of the Bible.
I recommend the Kjv. Though translations are not perfectly inspired. But derive there authority from the Greek and Hebrew.
January 2 at 1:42am via mobile · Like..
Matt SIngleton Put it like this, if you saw me talking to James white and Peter Ruckman.
James white would say I am king James only. But Peter Ruckman would call me a liberal TR man.
January 2 at 1:47am via mobile · Like..
Matt SIngleton But my position is essentially the same as Westminster, Charles spurgeon, d.a.Waite, Henry Morris, Frank Logsdon and Edward hills
January 2 at 1:53am via mobile · Like..
Jonathan David Sarfati One can be a preservationist, but this doens't entail that God preserved the Biblical manuscripts they way you think. The KJVO way is untenable because it would follow that no Bible existed before the Romanist Erasmus performed his textual criticisms on a few Greek manuscripts. None of these MSS is identical to the so-called Textus Receptus, so where was the "preservation"?
What is the evidence that God preserved Scripture in the TR, which differs from the Majority Text in 1,800 places?
The Westminster divines were too early for the textual debate. Spurgeon preached a sermon called "And we are: A Jewel from the revised Version", based completely on the superiority of the Alexandrian text in 1 John 3:1. I know much more than Henry Morris did about this issue; his writings on textual matters were very weak (James White showed where Dr Morris erred on both factual and logical grounds http://vintage.aomin.org/A%20Response%20to%20a%20Brother%20in%20Christ.html). I have rebutted Waite's slanderous attacks on the NIV, again showing that he is loose with facts and guilty of double standards.
The Geneva Bible is a much better translation of the same texts that the KJV translators used.
Alpha and Omega Ministries, The Christian Apologetics Ministry of James R. White
vintage.aomin.org
Christian Apologetics, Theology, Information on Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, J...ehovah's Witnesses, etc. A reformed ministry dedicated to sharing the Gospel of God's grace!See More.January 2 at 2:14am · Edited · Like..Matt SIngleton Your first premise is contradictory, you say that the idea of original manuscript remaining intact means it disappeared???
You are not omniscient.
You did not live in every century. You are assuming your own uniformitarianism idea of the text.
Their were many copies that existed in those centuries that you don't have access to.
Why does the "majority text" matter?
One minute it is utterly ignored when it prefers the traditional reading. But it only seems to matter to disagree with the TR.
Well, let's acknowledge the truth.
10% is not the majority!!
Von soden's critical text is only based on about 500 of the 5000 Greek manuscripts. That means he can choose the text which will disagree most with the TR. and that has been the on-going mission of textual criticism.
Of the Westminster were too early for the textual debate, perhaps they were too early for sola scriptura debate. Perhaps they were too early for the justification debate as well!
Who were they to stand up against Rome?
All they claimed was that they had absolute authority from scripture. But if they did not then the premise of the reformation falls apart.
James white constantly errs on factual grounds. He is still selling the myth about Erasmus and the wet manuscript which was dispelled by Bruce metzger.
Or this constant obsession with Erasmus and 6-7 manuscripts ignoring the work of stephanus and Beza when Beza possessed 19 manuscripts.
Also ignoring how the reformers were aware of textual issues sense the KJV translators compared 15 ancient translations on top of their work with the Greek text.
Spurgeon Preached on mark 16:16
Morris was smart enough to know about the evolutionary presuppositions of the text critics.
Defending the NIV is equivalent to defending neo-orthodoxy. If God inspired the words of scripture then the words need to be translated.
www.wayoflife.org
Way of Life Literature
www.wayoflife.org
THE APPLE STORE: A WINDOW INTO THE NEW AGE (Friday Church News Notes, December 2...8, 2012, www.wayoflife.org fbns@wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) - I love Apple equipment, but on recent visits to Apple stores in two different countries, I realized that these are true windows into the New Age. Indeed, the...See More.January 2 at 8:10am via mobile · Like · Remove Preview..
Jonathan David Sarfati The same could be said about KJVOs who go on about their text agreeing with the "majority" of the manuscripts. But suddenly, when their reading is finds no support in the majority, it no longer matters. The fact remains: your view of textual preservation is untenable, because no manuscript looks like what you claim the "preserved" text is.
January 3 at 6:54pm · Like..
Matt SIngleton No the preservationist view is completely rational.
God inspired the bible without error
God preserved the Bible for believers
God provided a perfect text for believers.
What is irrational is.
God inspired the bible without error
God could not preserve his word with out error
God's people stop believing in Christ alone for salvation.
But the church was intact as a genocidal idol worship empire.
Suddenly people believed the bible correctly and thwarted the "church" with a bible filled with errors. Which the popes could correct at any time with their superior manuscript.
So that we now live based upon tradition which is superior to a more popular tradition because it is more in accord with the bible which the bigger tradition has held to the whole time.
The fact is that we hold to our canon because we believe the scripture which says that God would preserve His word for us are true. 1peter 1:23-25.
If God preserved the canon for us, then he could preserve the manuscript for us.
January 3 at 8:15pm via mobile · Like..Matt SIngleton I have read you arguing against evolution with aging methods that are not in line with evolution even though the result does not equate a young earth.
Such as the rate at which the ocean expels salt and the rate at which which the rate at which the moon orbits away from the earth.
Why are you using evidence that does not lead exactly to a 6,000-10,000 year old earth??
Because you new that evolution
Runs on a naturalistic system. So everything has to fit a naturalistic system or the premise of evolution and secular empiricism fails.
Young earth is based in the supernatural power of God.
I bring up that the majority of manuscripts agree with the TR over and against the alexandriane manuscripts.
Which means that the churches by and large rejected these manuscripts.
You say will they don't agree perfectly.
Just like the young earth position,
Revelation is the answer. The bible teaches that the word of God would be preserved among believers.
The textus receptus is the basis of most of the worlds bibles including the most reproduced book on earth.
Now besides the fact that many of Erasmus views moved toward an evangelical position.
The reformation NEVER based the bible on his work alone. Robert stephanus, and Theodore Beza and the elziver brothers and finally scrivener who based his work off of the textual decisions in the AV.
To claim that this is all the work of a catholic is A-historical.
January 3 at 9:50pm via mobile · Like..
Jonathan David Sarfati What are you talking about? Our reasoning for our age arguments is expressed in http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth
Yes, the KJVOs must indulge in historical revisionism to re-invent the Catholic Erasmus, an opponent of Luther and the Reformation, a...See More
Age of the earth
creation.com
Evidences for a young age of the earth and the cosmos.Yesterday at 11:20am · Like..
Matt SIngleton Reading your age of the earth article you have vindicated my statement.
It's the same premise.
Science is not absolute, therefore it must bow it's knee to revelation.
The same logic of preservation.
Biblical criticism is a science which is not absolute, therefore it must bow it's knee to biblical criticism.
"to re-invent the catholic Erasmus, an opponent to Luther and the reformation"
This argument grows weaker and more embarrassing when you are encapable of giving a rebuttal after I have refuted the premise.
Erasmus never opposed Luther on any point other than free-will. And that is a subject which anabaptist, Luther's protege Melanchthon, and arminius opposed Luther and Calvin on in that day.
Besides the fact that Luther chose Erasmus work over and above the complutesuan polyglot; the Swiss anabaptist would have their sermons preached directly from Erasmus text, in order to deepen their convictions about anabaptist doctrine.
But you are still, yet again, refuted on this point. Because even if Erasmus was a raving papist, the reformers were not dependent solely on his work alone.
As Calvin's successor Theodore Beza had more greek manuscripts of his own than Erasmus. Not to mention the work of stephanus and the Elzivir brothers and others previously mentioned.
Still waiting on that...
Yet God preserved the word in the desert where Christians couldn't read it and have assurance of salvation, so that could be overcome by pagans claiming to be representatives of Christ.....sure.
But now we have a great authority which contradicts itself 3,000 times between 2 manuscripts and does not have the same OT or even NT canon that we have.
Based upon the authority of a "church father" who castrated himself denies that Son and Holy Spirit are of equal power to the Father, doesn't preach faith alone, argues for universal salvation even to the devil. Yep, sounds pretty orthodox!
Now with any facebook wall the debate didn't have an official end. But after a week goes by I feel it is safe to it concluded. Also remember that as in any debate we are not as deep in our references as one would see in a research paper.
btw, I made a statement the otherday that Dr. Sarfati liked so there is hope ;)
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