link:
https://www.youtube.com/live/5IDr5kQ3-so?si=6Z1jDBk1GP2LAiCu
I have had several debates in my time online. However the one that I have dealth with for many years I officially did not perform was the predestination/free will.
My opponent was Will kinney. Will had debated this position in the past. Will was known as a KJV, Bible versions scholar. he provides a virtual library of varying texts on his website "brand plucked"
Now remember, we agreed on several doctrines. [trinity, virgin birth, deity of christ, incarnation, fall of man, inspiration scripture once saved always saved] so this material is not concebout all theology but our partcular theological differences.
Will, wanted the debate to be title "calvinism vs Arminianism".
Calvinists regulary promote the fallacy of "false dicotomy". anyone who opposes their system is labeled "Arminian".
As long as it is not called out, this tactic is effective because it keeps the calvinists from the burden of studying their opponents.
Typically, Calvinist strategy is to espouse their views repeatedly and insert a strategy called "gaslighting" This fallacy verbally punishes opponents for disagreeing and combines demeaning and shaming to silence their competition.
I have never identified as an "arminian" because I have differences with arminian teaching as classically understood. This was why I was shy about claiming any type of calvinism. Although I breifly was and spent a decade with some form of modification.
My differences with classical arminianism is as follows.
1 classical arminianism agrees with total depravity. Now this phrase is not off for espousing man's sinful nature. The problem is an internal doctrine called "total inability". The idea that man is incapable of faith in Christ.
2. election: Arminians argue that the reason which God has arranged salvation is the foreknowledge of His faith.
My argument is that election is not a doctrine of salvation, but instead the kingdom.
Salvation is offered based upon the work and atonement of christ.
3. Arminius had the atonement right for the most part. However later followers denied it
4.Regeneration is preceded by faith
Arminius and a few others argued lighter version of regeneration preceding faith. Where the Holy SPirit comes to fix the problem after the fact in prevenient grace, giving man a free-wil. My position and others believe that while The Gospel draws people to faith. Regeneration however is complete process after faith and freedom is a normal function of the human psyche the way everyone agree on other topics.
5. Salvation once completed is eternally secure. arminius doubted eternal security. While wesleyans are firm in this denial."
But instead of Listening to my ideas, or anyone elses for that matter,
Does God offer salvation?
"It's never called an offer of salvation not once in the bible is it called an offer of salvation. God does not offer salvation.." Will Kinney 2:37:35-44
This is the heart of the problem in the contemporary movement of calvinism. And I do not believe Will is extreme in the calvinistic community with this statement. But if God does not offer salvation, what is the point of evangelicalism?
But how about we see if Will is correct.
luke 11: 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"
Here we see the Lord Jesus Christ speaking and he guarantees a resonse on the condition of "ask" then "knock" the normal implication of someone telling you to ask is that you are recieving an offer.Matthew 22:7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. "
Here we see the Lord of the wedding(God) has bidden his followers to find anyone willing to come to the wedding. We are to go everyone and bring people to the marriage.
Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. "
So here see the invitation from the Holy Spirit and bride of christ church. in a calvinistic system this is theologically impossible. Yet it is an obvious invitation from God.
God's Will
matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: "
If the purpose of hell was to punish angels. Then the punishment of man was a secondary purpose and not the original point. Thus man was not predestined to burn in Hell.
1 Peter 2:8 and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. "
Although an assumed proof text of determinism. They are appointed "also" proceeding the condition of their sins.
john 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. "
Obviously the professing "calvinist" KJV translators believed the proper translation the text was that "all men" [uiversal statement] [through him might believe] so belief is conditional.
"every man that coneth into the world" can not be a more univeral statement.. I know of no more inense phrase to this point.
Matthew 18:11
Who was lost? Just the jews or everyone?
Man's life
ecc 7: 29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."
The intent of creation is an upright man. If God has willed to be upright then man starts upright. But when man sins it is the responsibility of the man. seeking out inventions means that these ideas are not belonging to God.
Jeremiah 19:5 they have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:"
God does not promote moral evil. It is not his plan to make evil even though he racts t and operate around it.
what gives us faith?
Romans 10: 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; "
it is th effort of God to bring man salvation and therefore God desires man to choose Him.
Man's Free Will
Genesis 1:7 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
Dominion is an overt excercise of the Will. God created man with a will which dominates creation.
psalm 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies,that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers,the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;4 what is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands;thou hast put all things under his feet:7 all sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;8 the fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea,and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth"
In the act of granting mankind with dominion and glory, God is praised with excellence throughout the earth? So if Man in His creation is dysfunctional by God then God's name is not praiseworthy, by that logic.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
here the "breath of life" Is the spirit. Comebined with Adams flesh formed the "living soul" part of mankinds function through the soul, is the Will. The functions of the spirit, living or dead will place a context upon the soul. psychologist usually attribute this to the sub concious.
Deuteronomy 30:10 if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."
The pious are empowered by the Word. As opposed to a mystic experience. It is rational and sanctification is then rational.
Psalm 54:I will freely sacrifice unto thee:
I will praise thy name, O Lord; for it is good."
Many calvinists have argued to me that Man is incapable of doing truly good things, However the OT saints are not given regeneration. Yet David is frely worshipping God in Sanctification.
john 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Therefore as David was not aided by a special unction of the spirit, He did what was a trangression against the doctrine of total depravity. he willed that which was Good.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
This will be discussed later. But the phenomena of the Baptism in the spirit is a relatively new experience.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
2 corinthians 6: We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Hebrews 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
While Calivinist claim the work of the Holy SPirit as irresistable. The scripture even translated by Calvinists says that men resist the Holy SPirit.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
Now since baptism is in the name of the trinity,including the Holy Ghost, then the implication is that christian baptism has proceeded the spiritual baptism.
Acts 19:2 he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. ."
The baptism of John the bbaptist is not christian baptism. The doctrine of the trinity brings forth the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
1 corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
1 john 5: 1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."
So salvation does not have a 2nd work of grace to make salvation happen.
Will's proof texts
2 Timothy 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
Now like most of the reformers Will has a tendency to synthesize words. here will is synthesizing the word calling with election.
Understanding the distinctions between Transcendance and Eminence
SO typically theologans have a bad habit of affiring the trinity but only dealing philosophically with a unitarian god.
It gives them a lot of trouble for nothing.
One place that is more obvious over this subject.
Does God operate inside of time or outside of time?
I think a few moments of though would get the majority of christians to admit that He does both.
Now if you are faithfil you may not nottice, but this very peculiar.
How can one be in time and out of time?
but if there is more thsn one persn this more consistent!
Debating past the argument
https://www.youtube.com/live/Pf3KVUy1Ocs?si=wwGfxWpiNPnykmYT
While I and other see Calvinists are guilty of these strategies, really any ideology can adopt these tactics.
Most of these tactics are actually fallacies. If the ideas fail, you can use " bad arguments to keep the audience from coming to the same conclusion."
