Tuesday, October 17, 2023

In response to a Oneness friend.

 OT passages speak to the trinity

 1. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

        We see God as in Father, while Holy Spirit is upon the face of the water.

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
    Here we see the plurality of Elohim in the verses.  in fact if look at the next verse we see how God is used singular while the previously singular man is now plural as man and woman. Yet also scripture indicates that it is Jesus which is the image of God.

Genesis18:1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:"
genesis 18:9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
The plurality of God takes the form of 3 men.   
Then two of the men leave for sodom the one left with abraham is called jehovah. 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD." But look at whom is called jehovah in the next chapter.. 19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night." we see the two others represented. and then... 19:18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD:" them = Jehovah

2.  ex  3:Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."
      We have a triune covenant.  God has pick only 3 in the set.  Jewish commentators often reference this text to say that God manifest differently to each.   but we see a reflection of the 3 persons of God in each.  Abraham the father, Isaac the son miraculously born to be a sacrifice for sin.  The Spirit whom Jacob wrestle the blessings from.

3. psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."
  Here we see the obvious conversation within the Godhead.  King David sings about Jehovah

3. Psalm 2:11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
The glory offered to the Son. Obviously showing deity of both.
 

4. Isaiah 9:For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
The messiah is titled the mighty God.

5. joel 2:
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke".


6. hosea 11:
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."
luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."
     This duality of Father Son relationship shows 2/3 of the trinity.

7. Micah 5:But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
Here we see a description of the Incarnation, the eternal logos and the man messiah as one person.

Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?"

Isaiah 42:1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."
  Here we see 1st that the Holy Spirit is personal and sovereign. Yet also in the other verse He is distinct from the Father and submits to the Father.

9. Zechariah 3:And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"
In this discourse we see that Jehovah is speaking.  Jehovah warns Satan that jehovah will rebuke him.  In fact jehovah says that even Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem.  The Grammar seems awkward, unless this is implying the trinity which is composed of 3 persons though one being Jehovah.



The baptism of Jesus

john 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

mark 1:6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness."
luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable."
matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."





Matthean priority
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/1366/what-are-the-arguments-in-favor-of-matthean-priority

  1. Papias “Matthew wrote in Hebrew and others translated.” (HE 3.39.16)
  2. Origen said the first gospel was written by Matthew in Hebrew. (HE 6.25.4)
  3. Irenaeus (grandson in the faith of John by Polycarp of Smyrna) said the first gospel was written written by Matthew in land of Hebrews in their own language. (Against Heresies. 3.1.1)
  4. Eusebius — Matthew had first preached to Hebrews and wrote in their own language (HE 3.24.6)
  5. Jerome “Matthew was the first to compose in Hebrew and his text is still available in [library near Bethlehem].” He even challenged his critics to go see it if they doubted. (Lives of Illustrious Men ch. 3)

  matthew was the first gospel wrotten and this sets the tone for the gospels. the seculars argue with text criticism which denies the inspiration of the Bublw. The idea is that man evolves and so culture and religion evolve.  So the bible evolves too.

Jesus, one person or two?
Ephesians 1:ce. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
John 1:14 
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1 timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
From these texts there is one Lord Jesus Christ. The Word which became flesh was one Lord.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

     If God is one person and Jesús is God then according to the words of Christ his witness would not be true.

-5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

-8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father als"


The Holy ghost proceeding the father or the Son?

joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
john 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"


Peter and John's baptism
John the Baptist baptized under the mosaic covenant.

luke 16:16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Mark 1:As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."


The gospel of the kingdom vs Age of grace.

Ephesians 3:1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
Matthew 15:14 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


repent) change of mind/heart
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
Deuteronomy 32:14
And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
transition"
  When God repents he simply changes His mind in what he is going to do.  [evil in 14 refers to destruction.]

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."


Repentance of sins, involves works
Luke 3:10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

remission) [1828 websters dictionary]
1. Abatement; relaxation; moderation; as the remission of extreme rigor.
5.
 Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28Hebrews 9:22.

So the resmission of sins relaxes the penalty of the law, But the Jew is still under the law.  The first followers of Christ were still jews under the law.

But as for the christian we are not under this covenant.
Acts 11:
Romans 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Hebrews 7:And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life."

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