Saturday, March 6, 2010

Waldensian confessions of 1544 and1658 and fuller version of 1120

Waldenses Confession of 1544
1. We believe that there is but one God, who is a Spirit - the Creator of all things - the Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all; who is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth - upon whom we are continually dependent, and to whom we ascribe praise for our life, food, raiment, health, sickness, prosperity, and adversity. We love him as the source of all goodness; and reverence him as that sublime being, who searches the reins and trieth the hearts of the children of men.
2. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and image of the Father - that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, and that by Him alone we know the Father. He is our Mediator and advocate; nor is there any other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agreeable thereunto.
3. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, proceeding from the Father, and from the Son; by whose inspiration we are taught to pray; being by Him renewed in the spirit of our minds; who creates us anew unto good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge of the truth.
4. We believe that there is one holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have existed from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord Jesus Christ is the head - it is governed by His word and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it behooves all Christians to have fellowship. For her He [Christ] prays incessantly, and His prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed their could be no salvation.
5. We hold that the ministers of the church ought to be unblameable both in life and doctrine; and if found otherwise, that they ought to be deposed from their office, and others substituted in their stead; and that no person ought to presume to take that honour unto himself but he who is called of God as was Aaron - that the duties of such are to feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre's sake, or as having dominion over God's heritage, but as being examples to the flock, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, and in chastity.
6. We acknowledge, that kings, princes, and governors, are the appointed and established ministers of God, whom we are bound to obey [in all lawful and civil concerns]. For they bear the sword for the defence of the innocent, and the punishment of evil doers; for which reason we are bound to honour and pay them tribute. From this power and authority, no man can exempt himself as is manifest from the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, who voluntarily paid tribute, not taking upon himself any jurisdiction of temporal power.
7. We believe that in the ordinance of baptism the water is the visible and external sign, which represents to as that which, by virtue of God's invisible operation, is within us - namely, the renovation of our minds, and the mortification of our members through [the faith of] Jesus Christ. And by this ordinance we are received into the holy congregation of God's people, previously professing and declaring our faith and change of life.
8. We hold that the Lord's supper is a commemoration of, and thanksgiving for, the benefits which we have received by His sufferings and death - and that it is to be received in faith and love - examining ourselves, that so we may eat of that bread and drink of that cup, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.
9. We maintain that marriage was instituted of God. That it is holy and honourable, and ought to be forbidded to none, provided there be no obstacle from the divine word.
10. We contend, that all those in whom the fear of God dwells, will thereby be led to please him, and to abound in the good works [of the gospel] which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them - which are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, sobriety, and the other good works enforced in the Holy Scriptures.
11. On the other hand, we confess that we consider it to be our duty to beware of false teachers, whose object is to divert the minds of men from the true worship of God, and to lead them to place their confidence in the creature, as well as to depart from the good works of the gospel, and to regard the inventions of men.
12. We take the Old and the New Testament for the rule of our life, and we agree with the general confession of faith contained in [what is usually termed] the apostles' creed.






Waldensian Convession (1655 A.D.)
A brief confession of faith of the Reformed Churches of Piedmont
Published with their Manifesto on the occasion of the frightful massacres of the year 1655.
Having understood that our adversaries, not contented to have most cruelly persecuted us, and robbed us of all our goods and estates, have yet an intention to render us odious to the world by spreading abroad many false reports, and so not only to defame our persons, but likewise to asperse with most shameful calumnies that holy and wholesome doctrine which we profess, we feel obliged, for the better information of those whose minds may perhaps be preoccupied by sinister opinions, to make a short declaration of our faith, such as we have heretofore professed as conformable to the Word of God; and so every one may see the falsity of those their calumnies, and also how unjustly we are hated and persecuted for a doctrine so innocent.
I. That there is one only God, who is a spiritual essence, eternal, infinite, all-wise, all merciful, and all-just, in one word, all-perfect; and that there are three persons in that one only and simple essence: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

II. That this God manifested himself to men by his works of Creation and Providence, as also by his Word revealed unto us, first by oracles in divers manners, and afterwards by those written books which are called the Holy Scripture.

III. That we ought to receive this Holy Scripture (as we do) for divine and canonical, that is to say, for the constant rule of our faith and life: as also that the same is fully contained in the Old and New Testament; and that by the Old Testament we must understand only such books as God did entrust the Jewish Church with, and which that Church has always approved and acknowledged to be from God: namely, the five books of Moses, Joshua, the Judges, Ruth, I and II Samuel, I and II of the Kings, I and II of the Chronicles, one of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, the Psalms, the Proverbs of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, the four great and twelve minor Prophets: and the New Testament containing the four gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles of St. Paul - 1 to the Romans, 2 to the Corinthians, 1 to the Galatians, 1 to the Ephesians, 1 to the Philippians, 1 to the Colossians {2 to the Thessalonians, 2 to Timothy, 1 to Titus, 1 to Philemon},
and the Epistle to the Hebrews; 1 of St. James, 2 of St. Peter, 3 of St. John, 1 of St. Jude, and the Revelation.

IV. We acknowledge the divinity of these sacred books, not only from the testimony of the Church, but more especially because of the eternal and indubitable truth of the doctrine therein contained, and of that most divine excellency, sublimity, and majesty which appears therein; and because of the operation of the Holy Spirit, who causes us to receive with reverence the testimony of the Church in that point, who opens our eyes to discover the beams of that celestial light which shines in the Scripture, and correct our taste to discern the divine savor of that spiritual food.
V. That God made all things of nothing by his own free will, and by the infinite power of the Word.

VI. That he governs and rules all by his providence, ordaining and appointing whatsoever happens in this world, without being the author or cause of any evil committed by the creatures, so that the guilt thereof neither can nor ought to be in any way imputed unto him.

VII. That the angels were all in the beginning created pure and holy, but that some of them have fallen into irreparable corruption and perdition; and that the rest have persevered in their first purity by an effect of divine goodness, which has upheld and confirmed them.

VIII. That man, who was created pure and holy, after the image of God, deprived himself through his own fault of that happy condition by giving credit to the deceitful words of the devil.

IX. That man by his transgression lost that righteousness and holiness which he had received, and thus incurring the wrath of God, became subject to death and bondage, under the dominion of him who has the power of death, that is, the devil; insomuch that our free will has become a servant and a slave to sin: and thus all men, both Jews and Gentiles, are, are by nature children of wrath, being all dead in their trespasses and sins, and consequently incapable of the least good motion to any thing which concerns their salvation: yea, incapable of one good thought without God's grace, all their imaginations being wholly evil, and that continually.

X. That all the posterity of Adam is guilty in him of his disobedience, infected by his corruption, and fallen into the same calamity with him, even the very infants from their mother's womb, whence is derived the name of original sin.
XI. That God saves from this corruption and condemnation those whom he has chosen {from the foundation of the world, not for any foreseen disposition, faith, or holiness in them, but} of his mercy in Jesus Christ his Son; passing by all the rest, according to the irreprehensible reason of his freedom and justice.

XII. That Jesus Christ having been ordained by the eternal decree of God to be the only Savior and only head of his body which is the Church, he redeemed it with his own blood in the fullness of time, and communicates unto the same all his benefits by means of the gospel.

XIII. That there are two natures in Jesus Christ, viz., divine and human, truly united in one and the same person, without confusion, division, separation, or alteration; each nature keeping its own distinct proprieties; and that Jesus Christ is both true God and true man.

XIV. That God so loved the world, that is to say, those whom he has chosen out of the world, that he gave his own Son to save us by his most perfect obedience (especially that obedience which he manifested in suffering the cursed death of the cross), and also by his victory over the devil, sin, and death.

XV. That Jesus Christ having made a full expiation for our sins by his most perfect sacrifice once offered on the cross, it neither can nor ought to be repeated upon any pretext whatsoever, as they pretend to do in the mass.

XVI. That the Lord Jesus having fully reconciled us unto God, through the blood of his cross, it is by virtue of his merits only, and not of our works, that we are absolved and justified in his sight.

XVII. That we are united to Jesus Christ and made partakers of his benefits by faith, which rests upon those promises of life which are made to us in his gospel.

XVIII. That this faith is the gracious and efficacious work of the Holy Spirit, who enlightens our souls, and persuades them to lean and rest upon the mercy of God, and so to apply the merits of Jesus Christ.

XIX. That Jesus Christ is our true and only Mediator, not only redeeming us, but also interceding for us, and that by virtue of his merits and intercession we have access unto the Father, to make our supplications unto him, with a holy confidence that he will grant our requests, it being needless to have recourse to any other intercessor besides himself.
XX. That as God promised us regeneration in Jesus Christ, so those who are united to him by a living faith ought to apply, and do really apply themselves, unto good works.

XXI. That good works are so necessary to the faithful that they can not attain the kingdom of heaven without the same, seeing that God has prepared them that we should walk therein; and there fore we ought to flee from vice, and apply ourselves to Christian virtues, making use of fasting, and all other means which may conduce to so holy a thing.

XXII. That, although our good works can not merit any thing, yet the Lord will reward or recompense them with eternal life, through the merciful continuation of his grace, and by virtue of the unchangeable constancy of his promises made unto us.

XXIII. That those who are already in the possession of eternal life in consequence of their faith and good works ought to be considered as saints and glorified persons, and to be praised for their virtue and imitated in all good actions of their life, but neither worshipped nor invoked, for God only is to be prayed unto, and that through Jesus Christ.
XXVIII. That God does not only instruct us by his Word, but has also ordained certain sacraments to be joined with it, as means to unite us to Jesus Christ, and to make us partakers of his benefits; and that there are only two of them belonging in common to all the members of the Church under the New Testament - to wit, Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

XXIX. That Christ has instituted the sacrament of Baptism to be a testimony of our adoption, and that therein we are cleansed from our sins by the blood of Jesus Christ, and renewed in holiness of life.

XXX. That he has instituted the Holy Supper, or Eucharist, for the nourishment of our souls, to the end that eating effectually the flesh of Christ, and drinking effectually his blood, by a true and living faith, and by the incomprehensible virtue of the Holy Spirit, and so uniting ourselves most closely and inseparably to Christ, we come to enjoy in him and by him the spiritual and eternal life.

Now to the end that every one may clearly see what our belief is as to this point, we here insert the very expressions of that prayer which we make use of before the Communion, as they are written in our Liturgy or form of celebrating the Holy Supper, and likewise in our public Catechism, which are to be seen at the end of our Psalms; these are the words of the prayer:
'Seeing our Lord has not only once offered his body and blood for the remission of our sins, but is willing also to communicate the same unto us as the food of eternal life, we humbly beseech thee to grant us this grace that in true sincerity of heart and with an ardent zeal we may receive from him so great a benefit; that is, that we may be made partakers of his body and blood, or rather of his whole self, by a sure and certain faith.'

The words of the Liturgy are these: 'Let us then believe first of all the promises which Christ (who is the infallible truth) has pronounced with his own mouth, viz., that he will make us truly partakers of his body and blood, that so we may possess him entirely, in such a manner that he may live in us and we in him.'
The words of our Catechism are the same, Nella Dominica 53.
XXXI. That it is necessary the Church should have pastor known by those who are employed for that purpose to be well instructed and of a good life, as well to preach the Word of God as to administer the sacraments, and wait upon the flock of Christ (according to the rules of a good and holy discipline), together with elders and deacons, after the manner of the primitive Church.

XXXII. That God has established kings and magistrates to govern the people, and that the people ought to be subject and obedient unto them, by virtue of that ordination, not only for fear, but also for conscience' sake, in all things that are conformable to the Word of God, who is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

XXXIII. Finally, that we ought to receive the symbol of the Apostles, the Lord's Prayer, and the Decalogue as fundamentals of our faith and our devotion.
Conclusion
And for a more ample declaration of our faith we do here reiterate the same protestation which we caused to be printed in 1603, that is to say, that we do agree in sound doctrine with all the Reformed Churches of France, Great Britain, the Low Countries, Germany, Switzerland, Bohemia, Poland, Hungary, and others, as it is set forth by them in their confessions; as also in the Confession of Augsburg, as it was explained by the author,[1] promising to persevere constantly therein with the help of God, both in life and death, and being ready to subscribe to that eternal truth of God with our own blood, even as our ancestors have done from the days of the Apostles, and especially in these latter ages.
Therefore we humbly entreat all the Evangelical and Protestant Churches, notwithstanding our poverty and lowness, to look upon us as true members of the mystical body of Christ, suffering for his name's sake, and to continue unto us the help of their prayers to God, and all other effects of their charity, as we have heretofore abundantly experienced, for which we return them our most humble thanks, entreating the Lord with all our heart to be their rewarder, and to pour upon them the most precious blessings of grace and glory, both in this life and in that which is to come. Amen.

1. Viz., the editio variata of 1540, which Calvin subscribed at Strasburg.
XXIV. That God has chosen one Church in the world for the salvation of men, and that this Church has one only head and foundation, which is Jesus Christ.

XXV. That this Church is the company of the faithful, who, having been elected by God before the foundation of the world, and called with a holy calling, unite themselves to follow the Word of God, believing whatsoever he teaches them therein, and living in his fear.

XXVI. That this Church can not fail, nor be annihilated, but must endure forever {and that all the elect are upheld and preserved by the power of God in such sort that they all persevere in the faith unto the end, and remain united in the holy Church, as so many living members thereof}.

XXVII. That all men ought to join with that Church, and to continue in the communion thereof.

The Waldensian Confession of Faith
Copied from
The History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piemont
by Samuel Morland (London, 1658), pp. 30-34.
Reprint by CHRAA, 1982.
[Morland was commissioned by Oliver Cromwell to give aid
to the Waldenses and to research their history.
Original spellings have been preserved.]
An ancient Confession of Faith of the Waldenses, Copied
out of certain Manuscripts, bearing date Anno Dom.
1120. That is to say, near 400 years before the
time of either Calvin or Luther.

We believe and firmly hold all that which is contained in the twelve Articles of the Symbol, which is
called the Apostles’ Creed, accounting for Heresie whatsoever is disagreeing, and not consonant to the
said 12 Articles.
Article 2.
We do believe that there is one God, Father, Son, & Holy Ghost.
Article 3.
We acknowledg for the holy Canonical Scriptures, the Books of the holy Bible. The Books of Moses
called Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1st Samuel, 2nd
of Samuel, 1st of Kings, 2nd of Kings, 1st Chronicles, 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job,
Psalms. The Proverbs of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, or the Preacher, The Song of Solomon, The Prophesies
of Isaiah, and Jeremiah. The Lamentations of Jeremiah. Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah,
Jonas, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi.
Here follow the Books Apocryphal, which are not received of the Hebrews. But we reade them (as
saith St. Hierome in his Prologue to the Proverbs) for the instruction of the People, not to confirm the
Authority of the Doctrine of the Church: 2nd Esdras, 3d Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus,
Baruch, with the Epistle of Jeremiah, Esther from the tenth Chapter to the end, The Song of the three
Children in the Fornace, The History of Susanna, The History of the Dragon, 1 Maccabes, 2 Maccabes,
3 Maccabes.
Here follow the Books of the New Testament: The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and
John, The Acts of the Apostles, The Epistle of Paul to the Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians,
Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy,
Titus, Philemon, The Epistle to the Hebrews, The Epistle of James, The first Epistle of Peter, The
second Epistle of Peter, The first Epistle of John, The second Epistle of John, The third Epistle of John,
The Epistle of Jude, The Revelation of John.
Article 4.
The Books above-said teach this, That there is one God, Almighty, all wise, and all good, who has
made all things by his goodness, For he formed Adam in his own image and likeness, but that by the
envy of the Devil, and the disobedience of the said Adam, sin has entred into the World, and that we are
Sinners in Adam and by Adam.
Article 5.
That Christ was promised to our Fathers who received the Law, that so knowing by the Law their sin,
unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might desire the coming of Christ, to satisfie for their sins, and
accomplish the Law by himself.
Article 6.
That Christ was born in the time appointed by God the Father. That is to say, in the time when all
iniquity abounded, and not for the cause of good works, for all were Sinners; but that he might shew us
grace and mercy, as being faithfull.
Article 7.
That Christ is our life, truth, peace, and righteousness, as also our Pastour, Advocate, Sacrifice, and
Priest, who died for the salvation of all those that believe, and is risen for our justification.
Article 8.
In like manner, we firmly hold, that there is no other Mediatour and Advocate with God the Father,
save onely Jesus Christ. And as for the Virgin Mary, that she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and
in like manner do we believe concerning all the other Saints, that being in Heaven they wait for the
Resurrection of their Bodies at the Day of Judgment.
Article 9.
We believe that after this life, there are onely two places, the one for the saved, and the other for the
damned, the which two places we call Paradise and Hell, absolutely denying that Purgatory invented by
Antichrist and forged contrary to the truth.
Article 10.
We have always accounted as an unspeakable abomination before God, all those Inventions of men,
namely, the Feasts and the Vigils of Saints, the Water which they call holy. As likewise to abstain from
flesh upon certain Days, and the like; but especially their Masses.
Article 11.
We esteem for an abomination and as Anti-Christian, all those humane Inventions which are a trouble
or prejudice to the Liberty of the Spirit.
Article 12.
We do believe that the Sacraments are signs of the holy thing, or visible forms of the invisible grace,
accounting it good that the faithfull sometimes use the said signs or visible forms, if it may be done.
However, we believe and hold, that the above-said faithfull may be saved without receiving the signs
aforesaid, in case they have no place nor any means to use them.
Article 13.
We acknowledg no other Sacrament but Baptism and the Lords Supper.
Article 14.
We ought to honour the secular powers, by subjection, ready obedience, and paying of Tributes


gathered from www.reformedreader.org

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

Morland got the dates wrong. Hunt makes Jones look brilliant. Go read McGoldrick.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

I think it is your responsibility to refute my arguments yourself as oppose to simply saying read a book. I have read a few paragraph's so far without seeing any hard evidence.
If these documents are forgeries then why do they differ?
What albout the italian waldenses and the fact that then name etymologicaly goes back to the Italian name valeses?

I don't take arguments seriously when they refuse to address the issues and evidence.

While I don't have the research in front of me. It has been recorded several times that Inquisitors used these names of the ancient albigenses and were offended by them being anabatist. It is only a matter of time before I find those records.

Anonymous please dig deeper.

Anonymous said...

McGoldrick already refuted you, you just refuse to read his work. It's illegal for my to copy his work here.

I pointed you to the pages that prove that 1100/1120 dates are absolutely wrong and that the documents are in fact from the 15th century. Jones wants you to believe that Morland's date for the creed is right, even though his date for the catechism is obviously false due to verse references being used. No intelligent person would believe that without a better argument to back it up.

Your etymological argument really doesn't matter because it cannot not disprove the fact that Peter Waldo started the movement. There is abundant evidence that he did, and the historical similarities with the Dominicans and Franciscans are obvious.

Pretending that the Albigenses or other Cathars were the same as the Waldenses or that one group came from the other slanders the Waldenses. If the Albigenses were anabaptist, so what? The Waldenses were not. If they were, they would not have joined up with paedobaptist Calvinists after the Reformation. Read real sources, not dishonest fabricators like Jones.

William Jones, an eminent Baptist, in his "History of the Waldenses" has so mutilated and perverted the plainest documents of those pious Witnesses of the truth, in order to make them speak the language of anti-pedobaptists, as to place his character as an honest historian in a most undesirable position. -- History of the ancient Christians inhabiting the valleys of the Alps, page 3

See, you've already decided in advance that the Albigenses have some connection to the Waldenses. So you claim for the Waldenses things that are true of other persecuted groups, and you ignore the evidence that they are actually quite different. It is a logical fallacy to say that because both groups were persecuted, both had the same beliefs.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

Apparently the japaneseentry is referring to something pornographic. any advice on how to delete it will be welcomed.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

"McGoldrick already refuted you, you just refuse to read his work. It's illegal for my to copy his work here."

Spare me. All you have to do is site the arguments yourself.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

“Now, if we clearly prove that the recited dates of Léger have not any ground of truth , and indeed are against the best evidence derived from the same manuscripts, which themselves tell the tale that they were written some centuries after the existence of Peter Waldensis, the last strong hold in support of the fabulous antiquity of the waldensian sect will be destroyed.”
Melia here shows an obvious bias. It is absurd to think that debunking one source of history can wipe away the existence of an entire race of people. Even if the 1120 confession can be disproved it can not positively assert that a group of people did not exist. There has to be no trace of evidence. The source has to be shown as a criminal mischief.
For instance in the book of mormon there is a claimed race of guardians in north America who guarded the testimony of a mormon Christ and that the Indians were actually jewish in origin.
This falls apart for 3 reasons
A. There is zero historical evidence or archaeological evidence
B. Joseph smith was established as a liar, a pagan and unqualified as either a preach or prophet
C. Indians have been genetically proven to not be of jewish descent.

This is what has to be proven of the waldensis

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

"Your etymological argument really doesn't matter because it cannot not disprove the fact that Peter Waldo started the movement. "

If the movement is italian in origin like the name. The Peter waldo could not have started it because he is french.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

"Pretending that the Albigenses or other Cathars were the same as the Waldenses or that one group came from the other slanders the Waldenses. If the Albigenses were anabaptist, so what? The Waldenses were not. If they were, they would not have joined up with paedobaptist Calvinists after the Reformation. Read real sources, not dishonest fabricators like Jones."

ANONYMOUS this is a key point. Don't miss it!!

Yes the waldenses were slandered as heretics. So were the albigenses and the anabaptist.

Catholic historians called all these grouthe same names!

Now you have ignored my citation of Voltaire.

Could it be that if they were slandering the people they murdered. who were othodox. And that they used their empire to only a llow their version of the story. That maybe the people labeled heretics were actually orthodox themselves.

sure their may have been a few heretics every branch of christianity has apostates. Beside the people at this time rarely had access to a complete bible.

The real question is who do you trust.
A group which doesn't follow the word of God and kills people because of their beliefs.
Or a group that is not allowed to speak out and is persecuted to death?
The waldenses claimed to be orthodox.
The catholics worship idols on the same dates asd the pagans and would kill those who disargee.

Once again Voltaire made a point that these people would commonly rewrite history just like we saw this last century with the communist.

the albigensees were from the same region and called the same names as the waldensees and peter waldo.

think about it.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

"Your etymological argument really doesn't matter because it cannot not disprove the fact that Peter Waldo started the movement. "
Another point to bemade is that I am not out to disprove Peter Waldo.
I am not claimimng that waldo doesn't exist.
but my question is can you find any evidence from the ancient waldenses during the reformation that claimed Peter waldo as their founder?

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

"Your etymological argument really doesn't matter because it cannot not disprove the fact that Peter Waldo started the movement. "
Another point to bemade is that I am not out to disprove Peter Waldo.
I am not claimimng that waldo doesn't exist.
but my question is can you find any evidence from the ancient waldenses during the reformation that claimed Peter waldo as their founder?

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

"William Jones, an eminent Baptist, in his "History of the Waldenses" has so mutilated and perverted the plainest documents of those pious Witnesses of the truth, in order to make them speak the language of anti-pedobaptists, as to place his character as an honest historian in a most undesirable position. -- History of the ancient Christians inhabiting the valleys of the Alps, page 3"
Well, sure! these reformers have a problem with jones. But from the quote it seems they are mad at him for being a baptist and claiming that waldenses were baptist.

But paedo-baptismt is so beyond ludicrous that I am not at all worried about their criticism.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

"See, you've already decided in advance that the Albigenses have some connection to the Waldenses. So you claim for the Waldenses things that are true of other persecuted groups, and you ignore the evidence that they are actually quite different. It is a logical fallacy to say that because both groups were persecuted, both had the same beliefs."

The fallicy is really about assuming the Roman Catholic version of church history is unbiased.

I am not saying that these groups had some uniform imposed faith like the catholics. They were free people with free minds. Yet when given full access to the truth these people affirmed the full new testament gospel.

That's what we find in the waldeses confessions.
When you read the history of the anabaptist you find people falling into the exact same theological cATEGORIES, THE MAJORITY OPINION ALWAYS EVANGELICAL.

Why do you find such similarities among these groups if they are not the same faith?

Much like evangelicalism today you may find wolves aong the sheep but the spirituality rest on the grace of Christ alone and submits to the authority of the scriptures.

Anonymous said...

Here's one more proof that the Bogomils, who had teachings much like the Albigenses, are not the same as the same as the Waldenses: St. Hilarion of Meglin and the Bogomil Heretics. Of course, the source is biased, but it is not Roman. McGoldrick has done your homework for you: just read him.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

"St. Hilarion of Meglin and the Bogomil Heretics. Of course, the source is biased, but it is not Roman."
It might not be Roman but it definitely is Catholic!!!

which means that they will be against any evangelical like church in history because since they can not prove their doctrines biblically, they are "anti" and they are reliving custards last stand!
let me see...

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

"St. Hilarion of Meglin's lifelong struggle and contribution to the Orthodox church was against the Bogomils. In refuting their teachings, Hilarion said:

"You are not Christians at all, since you are hostile to the Cross of Christ the Savior. You do not acknowledge the One God, you slander the teachings of the Old Testament venerated by Christians. You deceive people by hypocritical meekness while full of pride. True piety is not possible in those who do not see their own heart's corruption, but by those who ask God's grace with prayer and humility. Evil thoughts, envy, vanity, greed, lies are not the deed of some evil thing within man to be conquered by mere fasting. These vices are the fruit of self-love which demands rooting out by spiritual efforts."

At one time, the leaders of the Bogomils met with Hilarion and began to debate with him about faith. The Bogomils taught that God created the spiritual world and that the devil created the material world. To this, Hilarion replied to them that in Holy Scripture it is written: "For God is the King of all the earth" (Psalm 47:7) and also "The earth is the Lord's and all its fullness" (Psalm 24:1). The Bogomils claimed that the Old Testament is of the devil. To them, the Saint replied: ``If the Old Testament indeed proceeded from the devil would Christ have said, 'Search the Scriptures … they are they which testify of Me' (John 5:39), and would He have acknowledged as the greatest commandments those about love toward God and one's neighbor which, at one time, were given through Moses?'' The Bogomils also claimed that the body of Christ was brought from heaven. To this, St. Hilarion replied to them that had it been so, then the body of Christ would have felt neither hunger nor thirst, nor weariness nor suffering, nor would it have been susceptible to death. The Bogomils then expressed their disapproval of the sign of the Cross which Orthodox Christians use. The Saint replied to them: ``And what will you do when the sign of the Son of Man, His Cross, appears in the heavens, and when all nations of the earth who do not believe in the Cross will weep?'' And he also said to them: ``How is it that you say that all evil is from evil material, and meanwhile you do not reverence that Wood by which the whole material world was sanctified?''

Because of Hilarion's prayers and exhortations, many of the Bogomils abandoned their teachings and converted to Orthodox Christianity."

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

This a very common scheme.

First you need to bring up a testimony of the actual people. As oppose to their enemies.

the medieval period did not have the sense of just that we call
"innocent until proven guilty"

It not like these people have degrees in journalism and have sworn an oath to be objective.

Here is my interpretation of these events.

1. these are the same charges given to waldenses, anabaptist, paulicans, etc. They all are called these names regardless of their own confessions.

2. A name has to have something to make it stick. If I believe these groups do not have these heresies then why are they used?

3. because they make sense in the mind of a Roman Catholic, with their version of the gospel.

4. All these groups were separatist. They sited the bible's teaching as the devil being the god of this world. They saw the hypocrisy of the papacy and him being antichrist. Because he claimed to be a man of God and at the same time rule the world while banishing the Bible.

5. The catholics Roman and Eastern were theocrats. They were postmillenialist. So they argue that they believe their is nothing wrong with the material world and that their antagonist are either gnostics or mannicheans. They then assume that their power and authority gives them the right to persecute and slaughter other Christians.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

``How is it that you say that all evil is from evil material, and meanwhile you do not reverence that Wood by which the whole material world was sanctified?''

I want you to nottice that this orthodox "saint"; the same time he is refuting the scarecrow argument is establishing precedent for idol worship.

It was not the wood or any image by which the world was sanctified. It was a blood sacrifice that was only sanctified by the sinless soul for whom it kept breathing.

This is a luke warm christianity that does not want to repent of it's own errors.

5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
1 John 5:21


I do have a presupposition That the Bible is the word of God and true. Also, that the church of the New Testament will exist in every age.
Ephesians 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

I have demonstrated that the catholic churches do not match the church of the New Testament.

It is not essentially to me that the one sect of Waldensees existed in every age. But in every age evangelicals have existed.

I hope we can come to agree on that.
In Christ, Matt