As we start the study, those less familiar with systematic theology will need to know that Logos means “Word” which is the deity or name of the Deity which is God the Son or Christ. The Word Incarnation means “in the flesh” referring to God becoming human by way of Jesus Christ. This article is focused on the deity& humanity and how salvation isaccomplished through this union.
In the beginning the Word was God.
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
It is clear teaching starting in the Old Testament that the Messiah would in Fact be deity and that Jehovah is our righteousness and/or savior.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
God became a man, not the other way around
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
made) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being (Strong’s concordance)
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Manifest: [5319 phaneroo] 1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way. (Strong’s concordance)
Here we see the teaching that so many cults misunderstand. There never was any effort for a man to become God. Since God became man there was no meeting or mixture of the two natures of Christ. The humanity of Christ was a form of the Logos.
The Messiah God
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Once again the Hebrew text understand the Messiah to be God.
The Virgin birth, all things are possible
Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
As you can see Jehovah was interested presenting a sign to the Jews. Liberals and Christ-denying Jews argue that the great sign was supposed to be a pregnant teenager. This in itself is not much of a sign. However, the prophecy declares a pregnant virgin who is called Immanuel “God with us”. If “God with us” is just a pregnant teen, then the child must be adopted with a deity and it could be anyone. The scriptures clearly teach that Immanuel is born of a virgin.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
We see that Joseph is encountered by the angel. Joseph is recognized for the royal bloodline of David. The Conception is clearly shown to be the work of the Holy Spirit. He is named by Joseph “Jehovah saves” or Jesus. It is clear that Joseph is entirely sure that the child is not his. This is specifically to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah. If Isaiah did not prophecy a virgin birth then why would Christ be born of a virgin? Even if it was a fraud, why make up a story to fulfill a prophecy never made?
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
We notice a few things here. First Mary understood that the power to give virgin birth to the Messiah was obviously not in her, and probably sounded ludicrous. The Angel then claims that this miracle will be performed by the Holy Spirit. The word “overshadow” brings to mind the exodus when the people were “overshadowed” by a great cloud at Mt. Sinai. Mary was then enveloped by a great light which was the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. The angel points out that “Holy thing”. This typologically points us to visions of the Tabernacle and the holy place. In other words it was infant Christ, who was the “theotokos” or bearer of God. Mary was a sinner like all other people and could not be in such a direct contact with God. Instead she was the “Christotokos”. She bore the “Holy thing” which would be the tabernacle of God. Our Lord Christ.
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
One amazing thing that I have found is that Jesus was careful about this important distinction. While for obvious reasons Mary was referred to as his mother. Jesus himself nowhere in the gospels ever refers to Mary as Mother, not even as a child.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
We actually see Christ going to great lengths to make this point.
Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Luk 8:20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
We see instead Jesus refers to her as “woman”.
Joh 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
Joh 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
One person, Christ
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Two natures (Logos & Christ)
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
Here we see all three persons of the Godhead are witnesses to Jesus as the Son of God. So we see that there is a distinction between the deity and humanity.
Mat 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father, which hath sent me.
When we see the phrase “Not as I will” it is obvious that Christ has a will distinct from God the Father. Many may argue this to simply be the Deified will of Christ. Yet in John we see a major distinction. “I can of my own self do nothing”. How could the logos be deity of he has no autonomy? He may be a part of the deity. Yet then he would not be a distinct person of the Godhead. Therefore Christ has a human will.
Some would then argue that Christ must then have two distinct wills and that there are two distinct persons in Christ. However, the problems is not two wills but two worlds. The logos is one person which dwells in the Holies as the spirit Jehovah and on earth is dwelling as the Christ. So the will of Jesus is simply the translated will of the logos.
The Son of God
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
While on occasion the title of “Son” is referred to the logos. The majority of the usage is in reference to the incarnation of Christ. In fact when the title of “Son” is used for the Logos it is referring back to the role of incarnate Son of God which is being played by the Logos.
The Son of Man
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Crucial to the doctrine of the incarnation. If the humanity of Christ is not affirmed then salvation is virtually impossible.
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This is very much an essential passage in understanding the propitiation of God. While Christ was indwelled with the Godhead, His deity, the Logos was made into the man Christ Jesus thus He was able to not only experience humanity but was able to experience death. The Logos was spirit in nature and thus was not destroyed just as the human soul will be placed in Hades because it is al immortal.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
So the Logos itself was never extinguished but simply through the flesh as Christ experience human suffering and death as propitiation to God the Father.
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Satan hates the idea of Christ coming in full humanity and exp[osing himself to mankind in such a loving way. Perhaps he is jealous of the attention which has been bestowed upon humanity. To deny that Christ really came to earth is the equivalent of blasphemy.
Did Jesus have a human soul and spirit?
This is so because of his complete humanity.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Along with flesh Christ had a spirit.
Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Along with the spirit Christ was prophesied a soul.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
How can Jesus have a human spirit and a deified spirit?
Jesus human spirit or ghost is but a component of Christ humanity. A human is not just a material being but also a spiritual being. While the deity of Christ, the Logos is a person of the one being which is God. The essence of the Godhead is a spiritual form.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The image of the invisible God
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The Logos was the “Light of men”; it seems reasonable that this light was in fact the image of God in mankind. Man is therefore in a unique position to be a house for God. Jesus is the true mediator between man and God.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Here we see the man Christ Jesus is the one mediator between man and God. This proves the title of Mary, as mother of God is inappropriate. If She were a temple of God, then she would also be a mediator. However, Paul is very clear that there is only one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus.
One offering of one sacrifice
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Here we see that it is the physical body of Christ being offered once and only once sacrifice. The man Christ would be glorified sitting at the Right hand of Jehovah.
Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Once again we see that the wrath of God was the demand of a physical sacrifice, not a spiritual one.
The high priest, Christ in Heaven
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Not only is Christ a high priest but he is the greatest High Priest offering himself perfectly to atone for the sins of humanity.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The New Testament gospel teaches that the perfect sacrifice of Christ was only offered once. This is the mediation of a perfect Son of God Reconciling the world to himself.
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
The Passover Lamb Christ through Jesus
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Bearing the wrath of God
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
The Logos near you and in you; The logos through the Holy Spirit
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
We can see quite clearly in this passage that it is the gospel which draws man into a saving relationship with God.
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Finally, and most importantly we see that Christian does not simply have a student teacher relationship, but Instead the spirit of Christ dwells in our hearts by faith.
In Christ,
Matt
1John 5:9-13
“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
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68 comments:
"Even Elizabeth CALLS Mary the Mother of My Lord/God! (Adonai) Luke 1:43"
The word Adonai is not in the text. Adonai is a hebrew term. This was Kurios meaning Lord. The Messiah is Lord. So it is not necessaruly true that Elizabeth called her the mother of God; Which she could have easily said. All she had to say was "Theos", and then you would be correct, but she did not.
Also Thomas was apparently aware of this distinction so that he hailed Christ "My Lord And My God".
Christ was "the temple of God" and not Mary.
Otherwise Mary would be a second mediator. Paul clearly teaches that Jesus is the only mediator between man and God. 1 Timothy 2:5
The doctrine of mary as the second Savior is blasphemy and a denial of Christ humanity.
A fully human baby does not float through a womb. This denial of the humanity of christ is only for the sake of idolatry and an abomination before Jehovah.
"Scripture is as clear as glass. The "Holy Thing" has a name- The Son of God! Luke 1:35"
There is no doubt that "the holy thing" was in fact the Son of God Jesus Christ. But there is a reason that God breathed the word "hagias" at this point of the text. He wanted to emphasize the nature of the infant christ as the Holy vessel which would bring God to the earth.
"What you are doing here is denying the divinity of Christ to defend the theology of a bunch of hypocrite blasphemer "reformers" who are all roasting in the bowels of hell."
If I wanted to deny the Deity of Christ I would simply deny the deity of Christ. I am the pastor of a free Church. Nobody could stop me from blasphming.(though I am proud to say that my members would leave.)
I have clearly taught in not only this, but multiple articles that Christ is fully God and that with in him the entire godhead dwells. I ascerted That God became a man and clearly taught the unity of Christ.
Your accusation is a desperate defense mechanism. You find yourself helpless when confronted with the infallible word of God.
I really do hate to see you so pathetically reduced to nothing.
Repent of your sins and accept the biblical Christ as your ONLY hope of salvation. Instead of moping around awaiting thousands of years of fire which you think is purgatory but is instead the eternal lake of fire. You could truly be saved and enjoy the paradise of Heaven, and the new Heavens and Earth.
In Christ,
Matt
Jesus is God. Not sometimes, not half the time...ALWAYS.
Trying to seperate His Divinity from Him is like trying to seperate the water from the wet. Anyone who denies that Mary is the Mother of God denies the Divinity of Christ and places his own soul in peril of hellfire.
You've managed to advocate a combination of Modalism and Nestorianism and something I can't pinpoint, as well as invent nonsense about a temple being a mediator (hint: priests are mediators). What sort of salvation are you expecting to receive from this Messiah?
I have done nothing but expound the truth expounded by the scriptures and observed by the Church of Jesus Christ since day one.
The idea that Mary only conceived and bore a half-Jesus is blasphemous, protestant hooey. Completely unsupportable with the scriptures.
"あじ said...
You've managed to advocate a combination of Modalism and Nestorianism and something I can't pinpoint, as well as invent nonsense about a temple being a mediator (hint: priests are mediators). What sort of salvation are you expecting to receive from this Messiah?"
I am not a modalist because I argue that the Godhead has three persons.
I have taught repeatedly for years these persons are capable of independant thought and work.
However, the persons of the trinity are not of independant substance.
There is one God(as in being) who is spirit.
They all therefore dwell in Him since in him the fullness of the godhead dwells. Also remember Jesus clearly teaches that the person of Father is in Him.
Maybe you are confused since this article is just concerned with the incarnation and salvation and not fcoused on the trinity.
Secondly Jesus is of two natures.
We know that He is God which is of spiritual substance. But he is not of just one substance.
If he were of one substance he would either be God only which is gnosticism. Or he would be just a man classic liberalism/ebionite.
So in the incarnation there are two substances.
Christ's deified substance is the same substance shared by all 3 persons of the trinity.
Christ is one person because the Logos is eternal and the humanity of Christ is NOT an original being which ever met with LOGOS.
The WORD became flesh. He did not adopt flesh or met with flesh.
The one person Jesus functions simultaneously in two forms.
His will is TRANSLATED in a mysterious and constant way from Deity to humanity and back.
Jesus referred to His flesh as a temple. Challenging the pharisees that if they were to tear down down his temple he would build it back up in three days.
Jesus in his person is the priest and his body is the temple.
Catholic theology is guilty of denying the humanity of Christ.
They deny calling mary christotokos.
Because in essence they deny Christ as fully human.
Therefore Mary is the Mother of God and not the mother of Christ.
This tries to make Mary the temple of God. (I have heard Mary referred in this way by staunch catholics).
Since Mary is then the physical temple of God. It would on be rational for Catholics to think of her as the mediator netween Man and God.
Which is why many Catholics cling to Mary as Co-redemptrix.
Here is the question is Catholics believe Jesus is fully human then why do the have a problem with the title mother of Christ?
When they use titles titles like mother of God, it is in the negative concerning humanity.
Why else do they want to add to the scriptures a doctrine of Christ floating through the womb? Is that a human feat? Does any natural human being float through physical womb?
The deception is that Roman Catholicism denies the full humanity of Christ and therefore uses Mary as a crutch for salvation.
While we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly.
We do not come to MAry because Christ wants to come to us. And He offers us eternal salvation based upon his perfect righteousness.
"Jesus was FULLY God from the instant of conception, to the moment of His resurrection, to now. He never ceased being God, to even the slightest degree, for even a moment."
Jesus was fully God from eternity past.
The Logos is the same person as Jesus. Therefore, it is obvious that you have just publicly taught Arianism.
Congradualation on committing heresy and hypocrisy.
nobody does it better than you.
I'll further ignore any discussions about which of us is confused...
Whey you say, "The humanity of Christ was a form of the Logos," you are advocating Modalism. When you advocate the term Christotokos, you are Nestorian. Saying, "His will is TRANSLATED in a mysterious and constant way from Deity to humanity and back," appears to be a form of Eutychianism, with the added implication that the divine will is changed by the human will.
If Christ is Christotokos because he is a temple, then why aren't individual believers are Christotokos? Their bodies are temples too.
Deeper Truth did not teach Arianism; you should not present false accusations. Jesus was fully God from the instant of conception. He was also fully God before that, being the Logos, a Person of the Trinity. Deeper Truth did not deny this, not even by implication.
"Whey you say, "The humanity of Christ was a form of the Logos," you are advocating Modalism. "
wow!
No, really you truly are confused!!
Modalism is the teaching that there is only one person in the God head and therefore no trinity.
It has little to do with the doctrine of the incarnation. Although "Jesus only" Penticostals are modalist and nestorian because they believe the humanity of Christ is a separate person from the unitarian god.
I don't advocate that. I taught against it in my article "pentecostal problems" I believe in 3 separate persons of the trinity.
"When you advocate the term Christotokos, you are Nestorian. Saying, "His will is TRANSLATED in a mysterious and constant way from Deity to humanity and back," appears to be a form of Eutychianism,"
Your joking right? Eutychanism overemphasizes the unity of Christ while Nestorianism says that there are persons. To charge me with both is to affirm that I believe in the incarnation.
Your two negatives equal a positive.
thanx
Also if you could brush up on your theological dictionary.
"Deeper Truth did not teach Arianism; you should not present false accusations. Jesus was fully God from the instant of conception. He was also fully God before that, being the Logos, a Person of the Trinity. Deeper Truth did not deny this, not even by implication."
Deeper truth and others have accused me with the false accusation of Nestorianism.
However he implied that Jesus was was deity at conception instead of eternally deity.
YOU NEED TO BE CONSISTANT. YOU WANT TO THROW AROUND LABELS LIKE HERETIC; THEN YOU BETTER MEAN THEM.
Anyone can have there words twisted to appear heretical.
The question is whether a person is openly teaching heresy. DT is an arian by his standards.
I have been condemned of nestorianism even though I clearly teach the unity of Christ person in this article.
So if DT and Others want use such propaganda then they ought to be held by the same standard.
"The idea that Mary only conceived and bore a half-Jesus is blasphemous, protestant hooey. Completely unsupportable with the scriptures."
"half-Jesus" So you are saying that if we take away from the deity of Christ then we have 50% human?
This is the question do you really believe that Jesus is completely human or are you apollyinarian?
You want to call Mary the Mother of God, because you do not want to admit that Jesus is completely human.
Christ is 100% God and 100% Man.
God is 100% God and 0% man.
You deny the humanity of Christ. Don't you?
"The idea that Mary only conceived and bore a half-Jesus is blasphemous, protestant hooey. Completely unsupportable with the scriptures."
"half-Jesus" So you are saying that if we take away from the deity of Christ then we have 50% human?
This is the question do you really believe that Jesus is completely human or are you apollyinarian?
You want to call Mary the Mother of God, because you do not want to admit that Jesus is completely human.
No, idiot. The 50% Jesus is the argument YOU are making, not me.
I am merely calling you on it.
Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man and is the Son of Mary. Therefore, as much as you try to squirm, like the serpent you are, you cannot escape the fact that mary is the Mother of God.
DT is an arian by his standards.
Is that all you can do is lie?
I have NEVER denied the humanity of Christ and nothing I have EVER said could be construed that I have. You pulled that lie right out of your own satanic heart.
It is YOU who argues for a Jesus in slices..."Mary's part is is human, the other part Divine"....
It is YOU who is the heretic.
There is NO percentage of Jesus that is not God.
If Mary is not the Mother of God, the doctrine of the Incarnation is MEANINGLESS. What you prescribe is heretical. It cannot be any more plain.
You will NOT find your blasphemous doctrine ANYWHERE in the Bible or in any of the writings of the church. It is a lie from the devil.
Irenaeus
"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Repent of your heresey
fundieprod hypocrites like you have a terror of the early church. The proof is clear. The early church was Catholic to the tee.
Cyril of Alexandria says it even better;
"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema"
He is soooooooooooo correct.
Of course, Matt will now claim that the church went into complete apostasy some 136 years after the death of Christ but that is laughable. The fact is that, until the protestant heretics, no one in the church DARED deny that Mary is the Mother of God.
To do so is heresey- straight up. No gray areas here. It is an infallible truth that Mary is Theotokos. God, Himself, ratifies this truth in heaven.
"YOU are a heretic!"
This reminds me of Adam and Eve.
When God confronts them in there sin they are quick to point the blame.
YOu are now being confronted by the fact that you are indeed guilty of heresy so you want to point the finger.
God will have the last laugh.Psalm2
"Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man and is the Son of Mary. Therefore, as much as you try to squirm, like the serpent you are, you cannot escape the fact that mary is the Mother of God."
If Christ is God then why do you insist on not calling Mary the Mother of Christ?
You insist on Calling Mary the Mother of God.
But God is by definition not created man.
Therefore, when you call Mary the Mother of God, you then deny that Christ was human.
John warned that to deny Christ came in the flesh was the spirit of the antichrist.
The Gnostics would deny that Christ came in the flesh and were very comfortable calling MAry the Mother of God.
Therefore by confessing that Mary must be called the Mother of God.
"Anyone who denies that Mary is the Mother of God denies the Divinity of Christ and places his own soul in peril of hellfire."
You claim that Christ must not be in the flesh.
Your only other option is to claim that Christ is not God.
Otherwise you know for a fact that Mary as the Mother of Christ implies deity. But mary as the mother of God denies humanity.
Check mate.
"Cyril of Alexandria says it even better;
"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema""
Cyril has to place the clause "inasmuch" to escape heresy in his sentence. However Mother of God in any natural use does not carry any implied meaning of God being human.
This an unbiblical synthetic title which is not found in scripture. It originated in the writings of Satanic pagans much like the title Queen of Heaven.
You have abused the fallibility of select early church leaders to make your point. At the end of the day you do not honor them, but blaspheme their ministries with your defiled false gospel.
Nestorius may have had a slip of the tongue.
Yet it is the actions of the great whore which has gone about persecuting and killing the saints.
You claim the power of your God by Roman military Power.
Yet the true God Jehovah claims his power in Himself and in His Childrens weakness we find His strength.
You can have the world. I will settle for the New Heavens and Earth.
"Of course, Matt will now claim that the church went into complete apostasy some 136 years after the death of Christ but that is laughable."
The true church never came into complete apostasy. The true church never came into apostasy period.
Certain pastors of the early church were handpicked by Rome as the "official" representation of the "Church". Everything else was burned in the fires of persecution. The remaining reords shows pastors who definitely believed the gospels but had a few slips of phrases due to there human frailty. The Roman Empire slowly set up a new paganism which imitated Christianity. It couldn't do it that well so they hid the Bible from the public and burned bibles.
BUt true Christianity even though it was forced into the shadows still existed then and it does so now.
"The fact is that, until the protestant heretics, no one in the church DARED deny that Mary is the Mother of God."
Remember readers DT thinks you are stupid. We are talking about a situation that happened 800 years before protestantism. Nestorius had many followers who would bring the gospel as far east as China. He claims I am a liar but He openly lies. Look up the history for yourself. This statement is a factual lie. If you fall for his deception you now only have yourself to blame.
"To do so is heresey- straight up. No gray areas here. It is an infallible truth that Mary is Theotokos. God, Himself, ratifies this truth in heaven."
Mary is the mother of God in an incomplete sense. She is the Mother of Christ who is fully God and fully Man. This is why the Bible never uses the phrase mother of God."
Roman Catholic apologist use the Title "Mother of God" because they want to downplay the humanity of Christ so that Mary can be a second savior. This helps them to not observe the Lordship of Christ and turn to mysticism.
In the end it is a Roman Catholic Theological deception to deny the Humanity of Christ. Yet New Testament Christians have always had faith in their heart that Jesus is truly God. If you read this article there is no doubt that Jesus is truly God as well as truly Man.
"Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man and is the Son of Mary. Therefore, as much as you try to squirm, like the serpent you are, you cannot escape the fact that mary is the Mother of God."
If Christ is God then why do you insist on not calling Mary the Mother of Christ?
You insist on Calling Mary the Mother of God.
But God is by definition not created man.
Therefore, when you call Mary the Mother of God, you then deny that Christ was human.
That is the most convulated bunch of nonsense I have ever heard. Of COURSE Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ and, of course, that makes her the mother of a man. I do not mention these things because they are assumed into the context of the argument. No one is denying either Jesus Christ's humanity or His name.
Yet, His divinity, just as much a part of who He is as both, is something you claim exists apart from who he was at conception and birth. It is utter nonsense.
Nestorius may have had a slip of the tongue.
Yet it is the actions of the great whore which has gone about persecuting and killing the saints.
You claim the power of your God by Roman military Power.
Yet the true God Jehovah claims his power in Himself and in His Childrens weakness we find His strength.
You can have the world. I will settle for the New Heavens and Earth.
You are going to HELL. You are going to burn in HELL. You will have no part of heaven because you are a heretic. Unless you abandon your heresey and become catholic, you WILL be cast into the lake of fire.
Why are you so determined to go to hell?
Do you not understand the assault you will suffer?
You will suffer thirst such that an ocean's worth of fresh water would be insufficient to quench it.
You sense of smell will be assaulted by noxious smell sufficient to kill all man kind.
Your sense of taste will be constantly assaulted, choking down brimstone and smoke.
and your sense of touch /feel will be full of fire inside you and outside you, pain you have not dared to comprehend.
Bound, hand and foot, your mind will reel with the deafening shrieks of millions of souls enduring the same torment.
Finally, even worse than all of those tortures combined, will be a
universe of despair from an intense, unsatisfied longing for God and the CERTAIN knowledge that you will never escape your torments and never cease being reminded of all the chances you had to accept the truth.
You have been shown the truth CLEARLY. CLEARLY! Yet, you stubbornly cling to your blasphemous hereseys and man-made protestant superstitions.
You need to repent and accept the REAL Jesus as Savior and Lord and not the false messiah of the Protestants who has no sovereignty or justice.
Matt,
Christ means Messiah. The term on its own does not demand divinity. Therefore, it is wrong to imply that "Christotokos" is sufficiently descriptive of Mary's role as the one who gave birth to Christ. It is not a false description, but it is not a completely accurate description either.
As costrowski said elsewhere on your blog:
Finally, there’s my favorite description of Nestorius’ doctrine, but unfortunately I can’t find the source yet – “an incomprehensible mess”.
Both costrowski and I have shown you advocating Modalism and Nestorianism in your Christology. If that's not incomprehensible, I'm not sure the word isn't a worthless qualifier for any statement.
When you outright say, "within the man Christ there are 3 persons," don't you mean there are 3 divine persons? So where is his humanity? Wouldn't there then be 4 persons in Christ?
DT,
I appreciate your zeal and humor. However, Matt seems unlikely to be persuaded by your tactics. I think you should consider II Timothy 2:24-26 in this situation. God can grant repentance and knowledge of the truth, so be in prayer.
DT,
I appreciate your zeal and humor. However, Matt seems unlikely to be persuaded by your tactics. I think you should consider II Timothy 2:24-26 in this situation. God can grant repentance and knowledge of the truth, so be in prayer.
You don't understand. Matt would not be persuaded by the skys opening and God Himself telling him he is wrong.
and since Matt takes it upon himself to always act like a pompous, arrogant redneck, I figured I should help him out.
The thing that kills me about Protestantism is that Jesus warned so forcefully against the wolves in sheep's clothing. People like Matt are not going to have any defense when they are condemned to hell. They were warned very, very clearly.
Jesus never said "Go ye forth and create your own religion"
I think this article is much better than the last one about the Eastern Orthodox. However, I still think there are problems with it. Very often you state correct propositions, but then you also posit inconsistent or even contradictory statements. I’ll get to these in later posts.
The first potential problem I came across was this statement:
“Since God became man there was no meeting or mixture of the two natures of Christ. The humanity of Christ was a form of the Logos.”
It’s true that there is no mixture between the two natures of Christ, so if this is what you mean by “no meeting” then you are absolutely correct. Christ’s two natures exist in union, without mixing or confusion, but they both exist in the divine person of Christ.
I’m not sure what you mean about Christ’s humanity being a form of the Logos. This statement comes dangerously close to modalism. His human nature was, is and always will be real, not just a form or mode.
Here’s an example of the inconsistencies or contradictions I mentioned in my previous comment. You refer to Jesus’ two natures by saying “this union”, which of course is absolutely true, but then you wrote something which is at best confusing and inconsistent, and at worst contradictory:
“The humanity of Christ was a form of the Logos.”
Of course the issue over the titles theotokos and christotokos are intimately related to Christ’s two natures. I all ready pointed this out in my comments in the comments section for the Eastern Orthodox article.
The second person of the trinity who existed from “the beginning”, by the command of the Father, through the power of the Holy Spirit, entered into Mary’s womb. When this happened Mary concieved. Once in the womb the Logos united to Himself human nature without mixture or confusion.
Therefore the human nature of Christ is as real as your or my human nature. This human nature existed in perfect union with the divine nature in the womb, after birth, on the cross and for the rest of eternity. To say otherwise posits a separate person in the womb. Therefore the person in Mary’s womb was not a god bearer or christ bearer. He could not be either in the same way that your body is not a Matt Singleton bearer. The person in the womb WAS God and Christ. This is why the title of theotokos is perfectly proper for Mary.
Here's a further example of the inconsistencies I previously mentioned.
“She bore the “Holy thing” which would be the tabernacle of God.”
What Mary bore was a person, not a thing. She bore God himself. To deny this posits a separate human person in addition to the divine person. This is so deadly because at some point, in some way you are then worshipping a separate human person in addition to the divine person. If she did not bear God then we have another human person in addition to the Logos.
Even though you previously stated that Jesus had both a human nature and a divine nature, these statements have the necessary implications of denying the humanity of Jesus. Instead they imply a separate human person bearing the divine Logos.
This is why Mary's title of theotokos has such profound implications. This is what Nestorius didn't understand - or maybe he did and just didn't care.
"Jesus himself nowhere in the gospels ever refers to Mary as Mother, not even as a child."
Of what importance is this to your point unless you are opposing the holy inspired apostle Matthew to Jesus. Matthew wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that Mary was the Mother of Jesus.
Going by recollection only I don't think Jesus ever addressed Joseph in the gospels. Does this then mean that he never addressed Joseph at all?
Matthew settles this point.
You titled one section:
"Two natures (Logos & Christ)"
The two natures of Christ are not Logos and Christ, but divine and human. The Logos is the Christ, but He added to His divine nature a human nature at conception.
“Some would then argue that Christ must then have two distinct wills and that there are two distinct persons in Christ. However, the problems is not two wills but two worlds. The logos is one person which dwells in the Holies as the spirit Jehovah and on earth is dwelling as the Christ. So the will of Jesus is simply the translated will of the logos.”
Christ did indeed have two distinct wills – a divine and a human will. A will is a property of nature. If he does not have a human will then he is not human. Therefore the one divine person of Christ has two natures and two wills.
The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit share in common one divine nature and one will. This is why they are a trinity and not three separate gods, which they would be if they had three separate wills. The Logos added a human will to His person. Because this human will was deified it exists in perfect harmony with the one will of the trinity.
Furthermore, this 'two worlds' proposition would mean that Jesus lost his human will once he ascended into heaven, thereby losing his human nature once not "dwelling" in this world.
In this way the novel ‘two worlds’ proposition denies the human nature of Jesus.
“In fact when the title of “Son” is used for the Logos it is referring back to the role of incarnate Son of God which is being played by the Logos.”
Here’s another example of a confusing, inconsistent or contradictory statement. This could very well mean that you are denying the begetting of the second person of the trinity previous to the incarnation. The above statement does not by necessity imply this, but it opens up the door to the possibility of this heresy. One may infer modalism from this statement. Modalism also may be inferred from an earlier statement of yours. (See my earlier comment.)
"If the humanity of Christ is not affirmed then salvation is virtually impossible."
This statement is very good and very true. This is what makes some of your earlier statements so dangerous regarding this point.
Bravo for this!
"The Logos was spirit in nature and thus was not destroyed just as the human soul will be placed in Hades because it is al immortal."
This again is a dangerous statement. Let me explain.
You mention in the same sentence Hades and the notion of destruction of the soul (even if you rightly deny this destruction). Because of this combination in one sentence it seems as though you may possibly be using the term hades synonomously with hell. The first problem is that it's not synonomous with hades, but is with the Jewish term sheol, where both the righteous and unrighteous exist.
The second problem is that it's unclear whether you are referring to Jesus' soul or to souls in general. If you are referring to Jesus' soul then you are dividing the person of Jesus into 2 subjects, or persons; one in heaven and one in hell/hades. After the incarnation the divine person of Jesus is perfectly united with his human nature inseparable for eternity. If you do separate him, among all of the other resulting problems, you have the problem of the Logos not being human before his sacrifice was complete and therefore according to your correct earlier statement "salvation is virtually impossible".
Remember, the sacrifice involved not only the slaughter of the victim but also the presentation to God. Jesus did not present his sacrifice until He ascended into heaven.
This means that Christ went to hades/sheol with his two natures perfectly united but unconfused, and not to hell.
The above has very, very profound implications for soteriology.
"The Logos was the “Light of men”; it seems reasonable that this light was in fact the image of God in mankind."
Man was created in the "image" of God; not his body, but his soul. This is why Jesus could ask whose "image" was on the coin presented to Him. Although the "image" was of the human person Caesar it really belonged to God. That is why Jesus could say give to Caesar what is Caesar's even though what is Caesar's is in reality God's.
"Here we see the man Christ Jesus is the one mediator between man and God. This proves the title of Mary, as mother of God is inappropriate. If She were a temple of God, then she would also be a mediator. However, Paul is very clear that there is only one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus."
Jesus is indeed the one mediator between God and man. However to make the statement you made above you have to understand the word mediator in only one sense every time it is used in and out of scripture. Let me explain.
Jesus is the one true mediator in the absolute sense of the word. However the prophets and apostles mediated between God and man, but only in an imperfect sense. They did not have their own mediation, but they shared in Christ's mediation. They were all instruments (mediations) used by God. This is why Peter, Paul and all of His apostles, prophets and saints are all mediators, but ONLY because they are the body of Christ and as such share in his one true mediatorship. This is also why when you pray for someone you are also a mediator sharing in Christ's one true mediatorship. This is why Mary is a mediator in the same way you are, by sharing in the one true mediatorship of Christ. She was the instrument (mediation) of his incarnation.
Furthermore, it is beyond dispute that Mary, as all of the Church, is the temple of God. In this way all who are the Church (body of Christ) are mediators sharing in the one true mediatorship of Christ.
“Here we see that it is the physical body of Christ being offered once and only once sacrifice.”
And
“The New Testament gospel teaches that the perfect sacrifice of Christ was only offered once.”
This statement is true but needs further explanation. The messianic text of Malachi 1:11 gives some help.
"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts."
Malachi states that one perfect offering will be made by the gentiles in every place in every age. This can only refer to the sacrifice of Christ. There is no other option. The problem is how can gentiles in every place in every time continually make only one offering. This problem is solved by the Letter to the Hebrews which states that Christ is continually presenting his sacrifice to the Father. The Church, existing in time, participates with Christ, who exists outside of time, in presenting the one perfect sacrifice to the Father.
This is how the Church can present a sacrifice to the Father 2000 and 1000 years ago, and today, yet only present one perfect sacrifice through Christ.
Mr. Singleton,
May God be with you as you consider the apostolic teachings as they have been handed down consistenly for 2000 years which I have presented to you.
I hope our dialogue continues in the fraternal path it seems to have taken.
"Yet, His divinity, just as much a part of who He is as both, is something you claim exists apart from who he was at conception and birth. It is utter nonsense. "
As always you are a liar. find a single quote in this article where I claim that christ was ever not deity.
I know where you made that arian claim.
find it.
"Both costrowski and I have shown you advocating Modalism and Nestorianism in your Christology. If that's not incomprehensible, I'm not sure the word isn't a worthless qualifier for any statement.
When you outright say, "within the man Christ there are 3 persons," don't you mean there are 3 divine persons? So where is his humanity? Wouldn't there then be 4 persons in Christ?"
This is a classic case of an incomprehensible mess.
Within Christ the man we have the fullness of the godhead.
The godhead has three persons(not spirits)
The deity of the word is the the person of the man Jesus.
So God is three persons united in one spiritual essence.
Jesus is two natures in one person.
God and man.
Since Jesus is fully God, there are three persons in his deified nature.
Only the Word is the same person as his human spirit.
IF I BELIEVE IN 4 PERSONS I WOULD BE GUILTY OF NESTORIANISM.
I am sorry, but you do not show a grasp of theological language. You keep on arguing heresy. But honestly I do not think you are trying to commit heresy, I just think you need to refer to well attested theological dictionary.
In Christ,
Matt
"Both costrowski and I have shown you advocating Modalism and Nestorianism in your Christology. If that's not incomprehensible, I'm not sure the word isn't a worthless qualifier for any statement.
When you outright say, "within the man Christ there are 3 persons," don't you mean there are 3 divine persons? So where is his humanity? Wouldn't there then be 4 persons in Christ?"
This is a classic case of an incomprehensible mess.
Within Christ the man we have the fullness of the godhead.
The godhead has three persons(not spirits)
The deity of the word is the the person of the man Jesus.
So God is three persons united in one spiritual essence.
Jesus is two natures in one person.
God and man.
Since Jesus is fully God, there are three persons in his deified nature.
Only the Word is the same person as his human spirit.
IF I BELIEVE IN 4 PERSONS I WOULD BE GUILTY OF NESTORIANISM.
I am sorry, but you do not show a grasp of theological language. You keep on arguing heresy. But honestly I do not think you are trying to commit heresy, I just think you need to refer to well attested theological dictionary.
In Christ,
Matt
"Christ means Messiah. The term on its own does not demand divinity. Therefore, it is wrong to imply that "Christotokos" is sufficiently descriptive of Mary's role as the one who gave birth to Christ. It is not a false description, but it is not a completely accurate description either."
There is only one Messiah.
The Bible clearly prophesies the Messiah is God.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Think about it you are arguing that the Messiah is not God. Unless of course you are arguing thatthere is more than one Messiah.
"This is a classic case of an incomprehensible mess."
You're right about one thing. First you say, "within the man Christ there are 3 persons," now you say, "Jesus is... one person." Make up your mind.
"Christ did indeed have two distinct wills – a divine and a human will. A will is a property of nature. If he does not have a human will then he is not human. Therefore the one divine person of Christ has two natures and two wills."
I think this is a cheap shot because in your quote I was referring to the two persons argument of Nestorianism. I did not deny two wills in my article.
"The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit share in common one divine nature and one will. This is why they are a trinity and not three separate gods, which they would be if they had three separate wills."
Here you have slipped into modalism. There are three persons with three wills.
1. How can jesus tell the father not my will but thine be done?
2. How can the spirit submit to the Father or Son it if it is all the same person. (it's like a self hi-five!)
3. How can the members of the trinity be counted as individual witnesses of the Messiahship of christ?
They are persons.
What makes them one god is that they have they same spiritual essence or body.
They are capable of operating independently since God is omnipresent. However they are of the same essence indistince in spiritual essence.
"It’s true that there is no mixture between the two natures of Christ, so if this is what you mean by “no meeting” then you are absolutely correct. Christ’s two natures exist in union, without mixing or confusion, but they both exist in the divine person of Christ."
costrowski here I am simply affirm the completeness of Christ to natures while correcting the error of nestorianism.
Nestorius was foiled by the suggestion of the two-natures meeting like in a marriage. Here I
argue for the logos creating the human nature so that there is no such thing as adoption.
You refer to Jesus’ two natures by saying “this union”, which of course is absolutely true, but then you wrote something which is at best confusing and inconsistent, and at worst contradictory:
“The humanity of Christ was a form of the Logos.”
"Therefore the human nature of Christ is as real as your or my human nature. This human nature existed in perfect union with the divine nature in the womb, after birth, on the cross and for the rest of eternity."
when I use the word form. I am using it in the since of "formation".
The Logos took the egg like jehovah took dust and formed
a man. He then mysteriously and miraculous tranformed his Divine person into the human person of the infant christ.
I can't discuss this mystery in much deeper words than that. That is why they call this the mystery of the incarnation.
"You're right about one thing. First you say, "within the man Christ there are 3 persons," now you say, "Jesus is... one person." Make up your mind."
The Bible says that the godhead dwells within Christ.
Jesus says if you have seen him,you have seen the father.
So all the persons of the trinity dwells with in him. However only the person of Christ operates the man.
One good thing is that the wills of the trinity do not contradict each other. probably the whole sinless plus omnitient thing.
In CHrist Matt
"Man was created in the "image" of God; not his body, but his soul."
Where do you find that in scripture?
Jesus is the image of the invisible God and he is man who had nothing unusual looking about him.
“She bore the “Holy thing” which would be the tabernacle of God.”
What Mary bore was a person, not a thing. She bore God himself. To deny this posits a separate human person in addition to the divine person. This is so deadly because at some point, in some way you are then worshipping a separate human person in addition to the divine person. If she did not bear God then we have another human person in addition to the Logos."
If you paid attention to the text you would realize I was quoting the text in Luke in reference to holy thing.
The AV translate Hagios to "Holy thing"
What we have is a divine individual who is worthy of worship. You think you are contending for the divine but indeed you are downplaying the humanity. Now you are arguing that the humanity of Christ may not be worshipped.
"in some way you are then worshipping a separate human person"
I claimed one person from the start. People bowed down to the man Christ throughout the scriptures.
However you like Mother of God even though it ignores the humanity of Christ and reminds congregants of of pagan goddesses.
"Instead they imply a separate human person bearing the divine Logos."
Yes Jesus is a separate person from Mary.
Jesus is the true temple of God.
Mary may be a temple of Christ.
But unlike catholic doctrine she was a sinner in need of a savior and need the protection of Christ flesh so as not to destroy her sinful body.
But unlike catholic doctrine she was a sinner in need of a savior and need the protection of Christ flesh so as not to destroy her sinful body.
you made that up out of this air. The Bible says nothing even approaching this blasphemy.
The protestant heretics really hate the greek word "Kecharitomone".
It means "compleley full of Grace".
On 2 times in the New Testament is this word used, once (in John's gospel) referring to Jesus, and in Luke 1:42, referring to Mary.
The term Kecharitomene proves Mary was without sin. Once again, (as always) the Catholic position wins.
As alway you make catholicism look stupid.
MAry inherited sin from her Father from Adam.
Sinlessness is never mentioned as a gift. Grace is a gift.
Jesus was sinless because he was the second Adam, the new creation.
Mary was full of grace because she had concieved Christ who as you admitted was full of grace.
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