reasoning with a calvinist.

Calvinist: Ephesians 1:5 tells us that God "predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure. As Romans 9:15-16 says, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Similarly, Romans 9:11 declares regarding Jacob and Esau, "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls." Then again in Ephesians 1:11 we see that people are "chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." From these and many others passages, we see that Scripture consistently teaches that predestination or election is not based upon something that we do or will do. God predestined people based on His own sovereign will to redeem for Himself people from every tribe, tongue, and nation. God predetermined or predestined this from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) based solely on His sovereign will and not because of anything that He knew the people would do. But what about Romans 8:29 where it says that those "He foreknew, He also predestined"? Doesn't that seem to say that predestination is based upon the foreknowledge of God? Of course, the answer is yes, it does teach that predestination is based on the foreknowledge of God. But what does the word foreknowledge mean? Does it mean "based upon God's knowledge of the future," meaning God simply looks down through the future and sees who will believe the gospel message and then predestines or elects them? If that were the case, it would contradict the verses above from Romans and Ephesians that make it very clear election is not based on anything man does or will do. Fortunately, God does not leave us to wonder about this issue. In John 10:26, Jesus said, "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." The reason some people believe is that they belong to God. They were chosen for salvation, not based on the fact that they would one day believe, but because God chose them for "adoption as sons in Christ Jesus' before they ever existed. The reason one person believes and another person does not is that one person has been adopted by God and the other has not. The truth is that the word foreknew in Romans 8:29 is not speaking of God's knowing the future. The word foreknowledge is never used in terms of knowing about future events, times or actions (God's omniscience). What it does describe is a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of God whereby God brings the salvation relationship into existence by decreeing it into existence ahead of time. The word know is sometimes used in the Bible to describe an intimate or personal relationship between a man and a woman. In a similar sense, before God ever created the heavens and earth, and a long time before we were ever born, God knew His elect in a personal way and chose them to be His sheep, not because they would someday follow Him but in order to guarantee that they would follow Him. His knowing them and choosing them is the reason they follow Him, not the other way around. The issue really is not whether or not God knows who will believe, but why some believe and others do not. The answer to that is God chooses to have mercy on some and others He leaves in their sinful rebellion. The following quote by John Murray is excellent in dealing with this issue: "Even if it were granted that "foreknew" means the foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith; He foresees all that comes to pass. The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith, which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith He himself creates (cf. John 3:3-8; 6:44, 45, 65; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29; 2 Peter 1:2). Hence His eternal foresight of faith is preconditioned by His decree to generate this faith in those whom He foresees as believing."

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Matt SIngleton In Ephesians 1:5 who is "us"? not Jew, not gentile but the believer or person who 1st believed. The text reveals this to us in eph. 1: 13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Notice inheritance which is connected to adoption. Romans 9:15-16 beg the question "who will God have mercy on? Romans 11: 31 even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." No doubt that Romans 9:11 chooses one unconditionally over the other. But what is this election about? Paul is quoting from the prophet Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, 3 and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever." Here we see that the context of election is national dealing with kingdoms. ELection is a kingdom doctrine. When we look at the context of Romans 9 we see this. Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." "God predestined people based on His own sovereign will" What is His will? 2 peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." john 1: 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. " john 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. " "Does it mean "based upon God's knowledge of the future," meaning God simply looks down through the future and sees who will believe the gospel message and then predestines or elects them?" God is the alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. God transcends space and time. He was not inside space and time plotting out a plan and waiting for it to happen. the whole picture is before him. His predestination is not over his knowledge, in other words he is not limited in what he knows by what he does. God knows every possibility. He i somniscient. So he foreknows and then he chooses as Romans 8 declares. He chooses to save those who would receive him. john 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 10: 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me." those who are not His are willfully not his. So of course they are not predestined to be. In other words this does not contradict. God does get rejected in attempts to establish a relationship. Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! " Calvinist often get obsessed over faith. Assuming that it has to be predestined so as not to be the work of salvation. But this is irrational and in exegesis it is reprehensible. Faith is not the work of salvation. It has no merit. It is the key to the transaction. But it is the righteousness of christ which is imputed to us which brings our justification. Calvin taught this clearly, it is called the imputation of Christ righteousness. If faith is passive then it is not a work. Now as I have written election is not a doctrine of salvation. So the semi-pelagian is wrong to assert that God has chosen the believer to be saved upon the merit of their faith. God has chosen to bring the blessings of justification to all. Romans 5:2 by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." ..5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. " So it is the work of Christ by Which the Father knows us and loves us. It is by faith by which we receive that love. But until we believe we are simply not saved. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.